If Women Were Men

I'm a feminist. And i have two opposing opinions on this. There is no doubt in my mind that if the obligations/lack thereof were reversed I'd hear the exact phrases Sara has used all the time. It puts into perspective that it's not necessarily Judaism that colours our perceptions of the deligation of roles within Judaism, but also our personal place in society at large. If women were given these hefty obligations we would still feel discrimination! The rest of the world is so misogynistic and unequal, we feel left behind at shul too. It may also speak as a reaction to the men in our lives (Jewish AND not) being infected with secular perceptions of male superiority, not inherent in HaShem's perception of us. Maybe if all men could perceive women as HaShem does, we would FEEL the freedom we have been given. It takes 35hours a week to breastfeed btw.
Perhaps it also speaks to the intuition of women, that some feel the need to take on extra mitzvahs while so many people are becoming less observant? A need to see those obligations fulfilled to their fullest extent. But also, why should women be picking up after men spiritually? Make them do their own work for HaShem! But then again, I do not see how a girl wearing a pretty Talit could possibly be threatening to a man who is confident in his own spirituality. For many women it adds to their feeling of modesty. Perhaps we should all be able to express our connection to HaShem in the best way we know how. Perhaps this division is purely animalistic and built on non Jewish constructs. We could be focused on our connection, not our differences. Support each other to be more connected with HaShem however he has called us to do so. Not trying to make people feel grumpy, many very observant men are wonderful and gentlemanly, I'm just torn between perspectives. Reply

I’m extremely sad 😞 and resentful by this article and I completely relate to the “women being a man’s” perspective. I felt like I was reading my biography, I don’t know what else to say. Reply

Thank you soooo much for this article.. it has helped my understanding of Halachic gender roles a little bit more than prior, and its very enjoyable...

coming from a secular/reform upbringing, i was always kind of put off by the 'sexism' in religious Judaism, but the more i delve into it, the more appreciative of it im becoming...

thank you again Reply

Why compare? I think the problem some women have is not that they are not obligated in all the same mitzvos as a man, but that they are not allowed to participate like the men. True, we have different roles and therefore we don't have to be part of a minyan or wear a tallis, kipah, etc. but in orthodox Judaism, women are prohibited from joining the men.
It takes a lot of understanding and appreciating who are as women to more readily accept our role, which includes "the beauty of a princess is within." I know it took me many years (and the joy of having children) to be at peace with being a female. Growing up orthodox, watching the men doing what they did and I couldn't join, make me feel like a second class citizen. Thank G-d I've matured but I can readily understand why someone would feel that way.
I think we need to put a lot of emphasis on the fact that we are different and have unique roles instead of comparing. Reply

perspective I applaud Sara and her daughters their sense of humor. This set things into perspective. It's not meant to denigrate men or women but to allow us to acknowledge who we are. When HaShem gave the Torah, He instructed that it should be share with the women first. We were given the holiday of Rosh Chosdesh. The moon represents Israel. How powerful is that? We have no need of excuses. We are a vital and help elevate the world. Many women, myself (formerly) included, think Judaism is "a man's world.". If I am graced with the means to elevate those around me, I shall, and if I may learn from others, male or female,I shall.,in gratitude.. Reply

The underlying point of this article, from my perspective, is that Hashem created us all with unique roles and in order to function properly and productively, one has to be happy with his/her lot, whether man or woman. Period. Happiness and contentment with who we are and what we are propels us to great heights and accomplishments. The author is just underscoring how no matter what we are or who we are, if we are going to just be grumpy and complain, it makes no difference if we are male or female. The difference is in our attitude and acceptance of the infinite Creator and us as His creations to function as He Wills. Reply

Why can't I pray on my own? Why can't men pray on their own? They can. And they can also pray with a minyan. Women, however, can only pray on their own. This is not better for women.

Why do men advertise to the world that they need tzitzit to remind them to be holy? The tzitzit don't advertise a need. They advertise that the men are Jewish. Jewish women and girls advertise nothing, so for all an onlooker knows, they could be modest Christians. They look the same to me. This is not better for women.

And women need help to be holy too, they just don't have any help that they can say a bracha over. This is not better for women.

Shall I go on? Reply

Sara, I am deeply disappointed with your male-bashing agenda in this article. It is a tragic contemporary ploy used by many women nowadays. Putting men down is used as a means of putting women up. It is immature and transparent. At the beginning of your article you write "So ours is a very woman-dominated household, and my girls have never wondered for a minute which is the stronger sex. It has never been a question since - based on their environment - it is so clearly the women!' Now, imagine you had four boys and two girls and your husband was the author of this article whom had written the same above comment but in the reverse and in favour of women. One can only imagine the outcry at his 'bigotry' and 'sexism', and as we all know, for this very reason he would never even dream of writing it. Yet you take this very liberty in writing such sexism about men. And you also go on to call men "weak." This is hardly chassidut. 1st wave feminism more like it. Reply

The same? I think you have to look at the role of women in a historical context. The commandments reflect the time they originated in, both in attitude towards women as well as practicality issues. Even if women held the same esteem as men during those times, it would have been very hard for the average woman to go and pray at the synagogue. Who would have watched her children? What if she was in the middle of nursing her baby? And in addition to that she would have been spiritually unclean for 2 weeks each months.
Yes, times have changed since then, but women still do the lion share of household chores and child-rearing. Even if women were allowed to participate in a minyan, how many would actually do so? Most of us struggle to get our kids to school on time, go to work, cook dinner, and do a myriad of other things until bedtime.
So where does this really leave women? Still somewhat underappreciated, because it's not about having the time to pray, but about counting as much as a man. Reply

Response to Joe Shmoe This was written to neither degrade men nor women. It was merely meant to illustrate how it does not matter whether or not we are men or women, in terms of importance. We were assigned different roles according to Torah, and we are obligated to fulfill those roles, regardless of how 'unfair' they may appear on the outside. People are rarely happy with what they are alloted. Women typically complain because they are not allowed certain mitzvot, while men complain that they are obligated to others. No one has 'invented' a 'superior feeling' to improve their self esteem. Women are not superior to men, and men are not superior to women. We are merely different, and it is through these differences that we can work TOGETHER to improve the world in which we live in. And as for the 'extinguished light'. It was not extinguished. It was hidden. That is why we have t'shuva. As for 'Jewish-feminist propaganda', Torah doesn't need propaganda, and I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it as such. Reply

The sentence about shabbat candle-lighting is untrue. The reason for the mitzvah of candle-lighting is to bring light back into the world that the first woman, Chava, extinguished. Nothing to do with a women's suprior status. Just used as a Jewish-feminist propaganda. It's no privlege, just a ressponisbillity, whom the feminists twisted to thier cause. In general, there were very little women-leaders in authentic Judaism.

I'm not trying to bash women. I'm just trying to cool off their superior feeling that they invented for their self esteem. Women have a very important role in Judaisim, but they cant claim to be superior to men. All this extra stuff is pure bogus Reply

As a man ,these article's are the kind that make my blood boil. Do women really always need to degrade women for the sake of thier self-esteem. Reply

So the point of this article is to make men feel inferior, second-class, yet still obligated to fullfill most comandments? To give women a sense of superiority in Judaisim,while having an easy way out? Reply

Another Point Of View As a voice from the male perspective , with a wife I have grown up and grown old with, 3 daughters, 2, grandaughters , I have learned a few things from the women in my life. G-d created all things from least to greatest , woman is created last , therefore she is sacred. She is the doorway between the worlds of spritual and physical. She brings us from infant , thru childhood , to adult. She nutures and sustains us. Torah may seem to be mostly G-d dealing with men. A mother will tell you that the child which needs the most help gets the most attention. I view the feminine with the utmost respect. To be on such a level is something to be thankful for at all times. Reply

To Yakira The point of the article (as I read it) was that women DON'T HAVE TO BE COMMANDED. We naturally can connect to G-d in a way that most men can't.

I think this problem all started with the codification into 613 mitzvot. Of course, the 613 were written out in a list by a man, so the commandments are phrased as the 613 "standard" and the ones that women don't do. If a woman had written the list, maybe there would be a standard number, plus "extras" for the men.

A man's no good at our monthly cycle . Maybe he's not so good at praying alone, either. Maybe women, in general, aren't so good at praying scripted prayers. Instead of seeing a "list of mitzvahs" and feeling left out because we don't have such nice accessories, maybe we can all just do the ones that are for us.

Of course, these are generalizations and don't fit everyone. Maybe I would be 100 times closer to G-d if I wore a kippah. But we all face challenges in finding ways to connect our soul to G-d with the body we were given. Reply

Hmm. I think metaphors like this can play in either direction. A man may count for 1/10th of a minyan/whole, but a woman counts for one zeroth, because even with her there, they still need a man to make a whole.

I'm not saying that's my view, just another way to play the same metaphor.

Are women not require to show up with others for a Torah reading, or are they not considered a part of the communal recitation of the Torah that binds us as a people? Are women not require to wear reminder's or are they not part of the symbolism that unites us as a poeple?

I think what this will inevitably come down to is an individual comfort level. Those who are comfortable and rejoice in their role will continue to do so. For who smell a hint of the "seperate but equal" - not so much. Personally, I cannot seperate the historic/cultural basis for the differences from the modern justifications. To me they are a whitewashing of the fact that "different" does not tend to be "equal" Reply

To Sharon I understand your frustration and concern about women's roles in Judaism. I wish that men would better understand our perspectives about Judaism. The truth of the matter is that I have always longed to read some biblical narratives and poetry that were AUTHORED BY WOMEN FOR WOMEN. I respect and appreciate the men's roles in Judaism; furthermore, I have no interest in taking over men's roles. But, we as women NEED MORE DEFINED ROLES IN JUDAISM relating to GOD. Just like another commenter stated, there is ONLY ONE COMMANDMENT THAT IS TO BE DONE BY WOMEN ONLY!!! All of the other commandments for women are done for the BENEFIT OF THEIR HUSBANDS (household chores, head covering, etc.). WE AS WOMEN NEED TO FULFILL SOME COMMANDMENTS THAT ARE STRICTLY FOR THE BENEFIT OF GOD, so that we will also feel that spiritual connection to our Creator as well. For example, head covering for women would be so much more fulfilling if we were commanded to do it, to show reverance for our GOD!! Reply

this is great! My dad is always ranting at me about getting my bottom out of bedding and heading to shul with him. i don't believe there's been a shabbos where we havn't argued about womens roles in prayer. now i'm going to print this out and give it to him! Also i want to say that the way you wrote this really got me engaged, i usually can't sit through stuff like this but your thread was awesome!! i do have one question though, why is it that women don't need to pray even though Eve ate from the tree? Reply

To Atalya Did you read the entire thread? I suspect that you didn't or else you wouldn't ask why I make the connection between cooking and cleaning and spiruality (or lack thereof). You would also know that I do not lack a spiritual connection. In fact, I made it quite clear that I have found a spiritual connection outside of traditional Judaism's proscribed roles for women. Reply

to Sharon I think cleaning and cooking is just part of the daily grind. Why do you associate that with spirituality or lack of ?..Being a loving partner and mother, now that can be very spiritual and fulfilling if you allow yourself to see it that way. Of course there are many sides to every human being male or female. If you lack a spiritual connection then you are lacking on an individual level. It has nothing to do with being a mother or wife. On the contrary I would hope you feel a spiritual connection to your children and the important job you have to raise tomorrows adults. You can join many groups to occupy yourself and it does not have to be in a religious circle or setting. I am a very busy mother of three as well as a nurse, I still find time for spirituality. You either feel it or you don't. If I allow it to enter me I can feel it everyday even on the busiest days. If you look for it, you will find it. Reply