The Mind and Beyond

I wonder if you would have any comment about this idea..

In childhood, the child learns in relation to their parents disciplining style or favoratism and values who they are.
Sometimes the mislearnings learned in childhood have ill effects on us as persons. This is similiar to the Greeks, this is the rules of the family..

When we mature we take an adult perspective on what we learned or mislearned as a child about life in home and school. We learn to look at our situation from an individual relationship with G-D perspective and reassess our experience in childhood to see if the childhood adults were fitting into the rules given by G-D.

Then we develop an individual and confident relationship with G-D dispelling the childhood mislearnings, developing a more stable individually disciplined approach to life with G-D's rules being our guide. like the Jews doing right in G-D's eyes. Reply

Rabbi Freeman We Agree With You "Ethics, to an ancient Greek, meant that which is right in the eyes of society. To a Jew, it means that which is right in the eyes of G‑d." That is the nugget of it, and it is the truth. That people should feel this is an attack against the descendants of the ancient Greeks, is really precious. Today, we have a world where people attain to what is right in their own eyes, not even society's at large. It is the natural trajectory of departure from doing what is right in HaShem's Eyes. As this "ethic of the self" crumbles, people will find themselves on their knees and suddenly, looking up, they will wonder where they are. Then they will begin to understand the path that led them there--and the way out. B'H Rabbi Freeman and Family. Reply

If I may... some ancient Greeks believed in sex with children. And modern day Greece has a horrible practice that any abuse can inflicted upon an animal. They have a horrific modern history of abusing homeless dogs...it is not forbidden by law. Greek orthodoxy is the spawn of Judaism as is any Christianity but are missing something that is explicitly forbidden in Judaism inflicting pain on an animal. These are human morals. Not only G-D's. Rabbi Friedman and The Rebbe were talking about what these cultures represented in our past. I think if you dig deeper into Jewish law and mysticism there is nothing but kindness and love. But it does not need to be sensationalized. If you know it, it's a truth therefore it speaks for itself. No political correctness needed. Reply

it's all Greek to me! You know, it is fascinating to me, as I just finished teaching a course, Fire From The Gods, about the Greek legacy to us all, that suddenly wherever we go, it's truly coming up the Iliad, the Odyssey, the truth of Troy, and also Joyce's Ulysses.

My students are seeing this. Yesterday I walked into a brand new book about Troy with Achilles in the title, right after showing a video called The Truth of Troy that is on You Tube and worth watching.

I am saying something IS happening. And yes, let's look at the Greeks today. I got some beautiful spanakopita, made fresh for my class, made by the pastor's wife of the Greek Church at the corner of my street in Newton. So gracious. So lovely. And so appreciated! These are very loving people who do practice what they preach.

Stop dumping on the Greeks, just because the Chanukah story is deeply about history that happened a long time ago, but not about their ongoing deep and wonderful contributions to us all. Maybe Elisha Abuyah saw this. Reply

Yes, Mr. Alcock, it is true,- we are all racists (at least to some extent).

Is there anyone who can honestly say that they are 100% not a racist?!

There were Jews who marched with Dr. King. To this day there are still Jews who work for civil rights.

The Chabadniks themselves were one of the very few groups who did not commit 'white flight' when they found themselves with Black neighbors in Brooklyn, NY (where they are headquartered); and-

they and their Hasidic fellows are capable of heroic acts of chesed (kindness) on behalf of people from all backgrounds.

Yet, the Jewish identity is bound up with undeniable racist implications; and observant Jews especially ('orthodox') like Chabad can be inexcusably racist.

Jews have always been under seige from someone, and they have had to take a defensive posture around yiddishheit; The Hebrew culture, and from there they have sought to protect themselves.

They've long since confused this with G-d and Torah itself; that it is the gist of the Torah. No! Reply

The Jews rise, whilst the Gks. & Romans fall. Dear Mr Karp, you carve & weave a wide web and I find it difficult to follow your muse. To reply I need more space, time armed with arcane facts, eg. my boring Prof. of ancient Gk History comes to mind, to compete with your erudite comments. But I must contest, we are all racists. My Catholic Priest and other clergy from a hybrid of many Churches and Reformed shuls all of which are insular & exclusive too. None of them walk the streets and prisons trying to convert or teach the needy & the rich, unless there is a dedicated specific ministry. About the Jewish mother, whom is generally less sexually (less promiscuous) active than the male, befits & protects her heritage appointment from uninvited unkosher sojourners . Many men from all walks still roam around today carelessly spreading HIV uncontrollably. In summary, not much has changed since the Gks & Turks were chased out of Israel around the time of Hanukah. Sin, racism & hypocrates are still ripe & rife! Happy Chanukah Sir. Reply

The separation between the Greeks and- Jews is based on the concept of the oneness of G-d.

The Greeks, like the Egyptians before them, and the Romans, after them (and many other people along the way), worshipped multiple g-ds, not a One True G-d.

For some reason, The Shema, though being fairly simple and direct, still manages to confound even good minds amongst many.

What is it about that that people can't seem to grasp (or don't want to grasp): 'The L-rd, Our G-d; The L-rd is One'?

But the Greeks weren't any better or worse about it than were most others; and to their credit, they did leave a positive intellectual heritage to the Jewish covenant.

Come on, observant Jews: Give credit where it is due, and stop discriminating against everyone who doesn't have the same mothers as yourselves.

Where is the wisdom in going on the web and offending everyone of Greeks heritage for their once great civilization which benefited Jews, too.

Does the nation of Israel have trouble with Greece now, so why bother? Reply

To Mr. Alcock, you are missing the points. The Greeks and the Jews weren't always competing and comparing themselves, though they do share with each other: The dialogues of Plato and Socrates, where one made a point and the other a counterpoint, in form helped form the Talmud when it was eventually written down. The Jews thus, in part, inherited an intellectual tradition from the Greeks.

Many Jews, particularly observant ('orthodox') Jews, don't like to acknowledge that because the fact is they are racists.

Judaism is based primarily on what race is your mother.

There is very little attempt to convert others to Judaism, and many Rabbis won't deal with converts at all.

Judaism, especially observant Judaism, can be very insular, and unwilling to admit that it got anything of merit from anyone whose mother is not of the same race as them.

Btw, Mr. Alcock, that includes you:

No real Jew acknowledges the 'NT' as part of The Hebrew Bible, and no authorized Jew translated it into Greek, and NO ONE is linked to Israel by it. Reply

Theology is a Greek word too. Dear Mr Karp,

With humility, as a student Theologian & Torah student, in incumbent defense of our dearly beloved Rabbi Freeman. Should you perhaps opt to study any Theological degree dip or cert. you will learn that throughout the ages Greeks & Israelites shared & disagreed much too. They were always competing & comparing themselves. The Hebrew Bible (OT & NT ) was initially translated to Greek (with the aid of Jewish sages & scribes), then Latin, then Germanic and lastly King James English. Biblically speaking, the 2 nations are inseparably linked and imbued in History and religion, albeit dissimilar by nature & ethos. Therefore, rhetorically spkg., can we agree, (with hindsight ) that your personal vistas are not in context with Biblical history, which would suggest too, that our Rabbi is guiltless and set free from your singular racist critique? (ie not her-story either.) Reply

The mind and beyond In Depth thinking. Excellent! Reply

Why single out the Greeks? Once again, I'm not trying to be a nudnik here, Rabbi Freeman, but what you attribute to the Greeks is certainly not exclusive to them; and to say so is, in effect, racist against them.

What's more, you know yourself (as do all Jews) that Judaism is not predicated on a belief in the divine. It is based on a birthright, even-

if the Jew in question does not subscribe in a belief in the divine.

Rabbi Freeman, have you not yourself, in response to an atheist/secular Jew, said-

"The same G-d you don't believe in I don't believe in, either"?

It was either Rabbi Akiva or Rambam who once said-"it is more important to study Torah than it is to believe in G-d".

Anyone can believe in the divine and something beyond the mere human mind.

Anyone can believe to the contrary; that it all ends with the human mind, and that there is nothing beyond.

That you ascribe one exclusively to Jews and one to Greeks is wrong, Rabbi.

What really separates Jews from everyone else? Reply

The Ancient Greeks and their gods Ancient Greeks believed also in an "unknown G_d".

As to the gods and goddesses they worshipped, they were surely about story, and most, were not about ethics at all. The stories are not meant to cover morality. They don't. The early Jews worshipped many gods.

The later Greek philosophers and writers, took those myths and wrote in a way that posed deep ethical questions, as in the story of Antigone. Socrates certainly took hemlock because he refused to back down on his principles.

From the Greeks we have great philosophers and they did leave us a legacy. Such as "the unexamined life is not worth living", such as Heraclitus who wrote, "we never step into the same River twice".

When Christianity took hold it was easy for the Greeks to assimilate a new way of thinking, because they were already en route.

The mythic journey of Odysseus is universal. It could be said we are, every one of us, the hero and heroines of our own journeys, and the journey home, magnificently, Homeric. Reply

Clear Thank you Rabbi Freeman - Your observation is stated clearly and I can see it was subject to ruthless editing. Winston Churchill once apologized to a correspondent that he had wanted to send a shorter letter but didn't have the time. Reply

building ethics If we understand ethics as coming from the Divine, then we still essentially find it from within ourselves - since we do not have an active, direct communication with God, but rather an interpretive system guided by our intuition, in which we constantly ask ourselves, "what would God think?" and answer that question ourselves.

So how is this approach really different from a secular question "what is the ultimate Good?", which recognizes there is an ultimate right and wrong, and which goes beyond mere utility of convenience that would lead to a sacrifice of an individual to a group, as you rightly indicated? Reply

which Greek Wisdom? If Greeks indeed were annoyed by the Jewish belief that morality is Divine, then they weren't exhibiting a whole lot of wisdom!

Does it matter How people achieve morality and kindness, as long as they do achieve it? This should be apparent to anyone that is Wise.

For those particular Greeks, who agreed with the Jewish morality system, but who entered into bloody conflict among the Jews, just because they were annoyed with HOW the Jews arrived at it, behaved like little children, and not as wise men. Did they really believe that the idols they insisted on placing in the Temple were somehow better sources of morality than the Torah?

On another note, I do not think likely that philosophers like Socrates or Diogenes would have wanted to create such needless conflict and bloodshed. But again, they were not the mainstream Greeks of the time, but rebels and mavericks among their own people. Isn't that why Socrates was sentenced to death by the Athenians? Reply

re: Ethics! Greek phil. vs Jewish phil. Actually, the Lamp story is attributed to Diogenes of Sinope. Reply

Eloquent! Eloquent! You say it well! Reply

Ethics! Greek phil. vs Jewish phil. Socrates (Athenian phil. 469-399 BC ) said he searched his country with his Lamp for an honest man, but found none.This proves man is unethical & unworthy of authority & leadership. My subject title is a dichotomy between 2 groups; opposed between thought and action regarding ethics then. Which is notably further widened; as nothing pure is found amongst men whom are faithless, unbelievers and corrupt as their impaired minds, lowly spirits and confused consciences are easily corrupted & converted by all evil. Only G-d is pure and holy, forever teaching us righteousness with Divine ethics. Reply