Objective Faith

Answer to Rabbi Freeman Hello Rabbi Freeman and thanks for answering. Sorry for for my delayed response.

I re-read the piece again, and my question still remains. I'll try to word it differently this time, and we'll take it step by stem without any assumptions:

If my faith is "not based upon your subjective self" then what is it based on? What constitutes "the reality of your inner soul, a truth to which it is intrinsically bound" and how is it defined? By whom?

Thanks again. Reply

Flawed This argument is flawed at its core.

A non-religious person who holds a certain set of beliefs doesn't "fear intellectual inquiry" at all. His beliefs start where his intellect and current knowledge end, if that knowledge is shown to be flawed he will gladly dump his belief.

Not so a (organized-religion) religious person. And the fact that it's "the reality of your inner soul" just means that it's a non-belief, rather it's accepting some organized-religions dogma.

In other words, if you "came to believe in it" (more like "accept it" than belief), due to an outer knowledge that was taught to you, then it's simply not really belief.

Rabbi Freeman, I would appreciate your thoughts on this. Reply

The order laid out by the Rabbi is key.

"Therefore, only true faith can be truly objective."

For those troubled by this article please read Rabbi Freeman's response to Norbert Steiner. That was a good exchange between the two of them. It was helpful for me to engage in that dialogue.

Thank you Rabbi, your words are bring joy and freedom as you continue to connect my mind and heart Reply

Truth Faith As is.

Thank you for sharing! Reply

Wow!!! So true! Reply

objective faith I fear G_d does not love me for i do not posess Objective faith, no matter how I try

This is impossible for me and is a definite effort.

i fear I am a lost cause, in G_d's perception. my total being is based on 'understanding' and I find I do not even understand faith, and am unable to accept faith as unconditional ...it is not working for me...

I am on the verge of giving up the quest Reply

Confuscious say Fears don't dissipate on t heir own; something greater must overwhelm. Soul - felt & honest questioning can deafen our fears ... yet step into the shoes of a liberal rationalist, take in a lecture or a debate. 'sleep on it' & wake up with the image of that same thinker, exhausted, drown-proofing.

when is it necessary to enter into "a house of tanners" ... for the sake of the "bride in their midst"
that same bamidbar moses labored through, to the 1st shauvos.; thirsty in the desert, with a group large enough to contain at least a few gruffing & huffing future "anti-theists".

look closely & see how these same secular folk talk themselves out of the arena of God's love -- 1 dim sum galleria after another.

"There isn't to be found a moo moo better in THIS world", they brief you, sorting out boundaries with chopsticks.

A child thinks but does not ask " Who dares 'cry wolf'' when TEACH is paying? sensing his indigestion, his sister whispers: moshiah will be here tomorrow. Reply

A contradictory word game Interesting sophistry
If you accept the Torah as G-d given, then you view your faith as objective: it comes from an 'objective' source - one which, in your view, is externally verified: so once you have this firm foundation, all further intellectual inquiry is indeed, in your view, a deepening of understanding based on your underlying premise. Fair.

However, how can your initial acceptance of this source's veracity be 'objective' when it is not based on evidence but 'the reality of your inner soul' - essentially how you feel instinctually? I.e what you have chosen to accept.

Moreover, how can any inquiry be said to be based on any 'objective' method if you are certain you shall not be proven wrong? This goes against the very essence of objectivity.

I am a very sceptical, agnostic Jew with a fondness and respect for Orthodox practice, and I understand and respect the intensity of belief orthodox people hold. However, aren't quotes like that above a little linguistically disingenuous? Reply

What to do when this logic dictates I assimilate Judaism is what I find gratifying and enjoyable (sometimes). The welcoming atmosphere at Chabad, the belief that children are a blessing and not an inconvenience, all these things appeal to me and make sense to my outer, subjective soul. The food at shul is better than at my home.

However, I know that deep inside my inner soul is the soul of an athiest. I pray, but I do not sincerely believe in G-d. I just do it to feel good or for selfish reasons. In a sense, when the Rabbi says to come to services because there will be a special Kiddush, I suppose that is a "bribe". I have fear and apprehension that intellectual inquiry will bring me proof not only that what Chabad teaches is inaccurate (which I already know on some level), but also that it is harmful or destructive, and that this will force me to renounce Judaism, and lose the pleasure that I get from Chabad.

So, yes, it is true that I do not have true, objective faith. If I did, I would not be reading this website. Reply

What you have written here, Rabbi, is- philosophy, and you are a philosopher (as were all the great Jewish sages before you).

Philosophers are not all 'unabashed hypocrites' (as you procilamed in another 'thought of the day' earlier this week). They just, like most of us at times, get caught up in contradictions;-

and so do you.

What you have written here resembles more the philosohy of Immanuel Kant: We don't work by objective truths, but know reality only subjectively, and G-d is not so much an authority above us but something to which we are bound to by something inside of us.

Here's the problem, Rabbi: If G-d is not something we know through objective truths, but only subjectively through our inner souls, then-

we run the risk of accrediting ourselves as the source of G-d.

That, Rabbi, is why so few Jews are observant, and so many do as they please, come heaven or hell:

They can submit to the senseless and worship themselves on their own.

You're tripping over your soul and falling on your mind Reply

Objective Faith Before I raise my objection to the term "objective faith" I want to say something about assumptions. The first sentence starts with three assumptions that are apparently presumed to describe a self centered person. The way it is worded it seems to say that each assumption, by itself, shows that a person is self centered. To me the three assumption do not go together at all. Everything has to make sense to me, but I am not after gratification nor do I match everything to my self image. Rather, I adjust my own views of myself and my environment, according to what makes sense to me. That said, HaShem makes sense to me.
There cannot be Objective Faith as long as your faith excludes other faiths from your faith. If you include other faiths into your faith then your faith has already changed away from what your faith was. It is therefore no longer what you believe in and no longer your faith. Objective Faith cannot exist. Reply

Thank you so much :), I have left christianity behind me , born as a jew , but completely assimilated , I'm finding my way home and the journey is abfab :) Reply

Objective faith I decipher that if faith is based on things or people of my reality then it is not. True faith is beyond understanding. In child like faith one loves and does not even ask why. Reply

Objective Faith This is SO true! I am a Jew by choice; brought up in Christianity. Once I began my search, along w/ 12 others, I found I have Jewish ancestry. Then I understood why all my life I had been drawn to Jewish people, music, history. Ten years ago I was converted to Orthodox Judaism. Most of the people I studied with also converted. Ofcourse all my Christian friends asked all kinds of questions & told me I would go to hell. I very quickly found out they didn't really want answers to their questions. No matter how gently I tried to answer their questions, they felt threatened. I never tried to tell them their belief system was based on distortions of the Torah. In fact I told them Christianity was the way they had chosen to go, but G-d had chosen a different path for me. It was so obvious that my being able to stand firm in my Judaism made them very uncomfortable because I had been able to question my earlier beliefs & they could only dogmatically spout what their pastors had taught them.. I truly believe that if you believe w/all your heart that G-d has given you truth, you won't be threatened if someone else believes differently. I am 74 years old & only wish I had found the truth earlier. Reply

Thank you A quick email check led me to the website of our “other” Jewish home, Valley Chabad of Woodcliff Lake. I was tired and not feeling motivated or intellectually sharp as I decided to read today’s Meditation. I read through the two short paragraphs without expectation, judgment, thought, or focused comprehension. I reached the end and was about to start over when I felt an overwhelming wave of lucidity and awe pulsing through my mind and body. It was a feeling I never felt before. Quite literally, it felt like I “absorbed” the profound meaning without reading the words, and it totally surprised me. I understood at a level far beyond words.
The intensity of the experience faded as I began to explain it with words, yet I retained the essence of understanding

Ironically, I spent most of my life resisting what I perceived to be the limitations of Objective Faith.
Little did I know that therein lies the infinite. Reply

Oh okay Okay, now I get. But why didnt I get it before? Must have been some sort internal guireilla warfare that did not allow me to see the clearer picture. But okay, it was there all along. I do not not even have to look for it, it would be pointless for me to search for it.

Now I just have to get that that needle metaphor going (from kabalah toon- getting to the point). So the world is a G-dly place that looks like a finite enviorment and is created for a purpose. I think this is the hard part. Reply

I have alot to work on However, I still did not reach the core of the concept being taught in the message of objective faith. It still makes sense to me, it still gratifies me and it still satisfies my own self concept. I am going to have to think more deeply then I usually do this time. Reply