Get Think Jewish Delivered to your Home or Office
HOME | CONTACT US | DONATE LoginLOGIN Ask the RabbiASK THE RABBI
Chabad.org - Torah, Judaism and Jewish Info Ask the Rabbi
 
Chabad.org » Learning & Values » Questions & Answers » Ask the Rabbi » Latest Questions » The Big Picture » Who Decides What is Modest?
PrintSend this page to a friendShare this
Comment26 Comments

Who Decides What is Modest?


Question:

I've been told that part of being an observant Jewish woman means dressing modestly. I'm very confused, however, about the standards of modesty and how they come to be established. I don't see much in the Torah about this. What does dressing modestly mean?

Answer:

Here is a rundown of how women's modest dress is determined. There are three categories of guidelines regarding dress: dat Moshe, dat Yehudit, and minhag hamakom.

Dat Moshe means "the law of Moses," and it refers to guidelines directly from the Torah. The only aspect of modesty that fits in this category is that a married woman must cover her hair. We derive this from Numbers 5:18, where the text implies that, for a married woman, uncovered hair is a disgrace. Since it is mentioned in Torah, it becomes permanently institutionalized, i.e. not subject to change. Even if all married Jewish women in the world would go about with their hair uncovered, this rule stays the same.

Dat Yehudit, "the law of the Jewish woman," is fascinating. It refers to the accepted standard of modest dress in the Jewish community. Standards adopted by observant Jewish women assume the status of law. What's unique about this is that no other commandment is so dependent on human decisions. G‑d doesn't say, "Just rely on your innate sense of kosher and you'll be fine." But that's exactly what He tells us about modesty. "I created woman with an innate sense of modesty and I know I can rely on you to express that in your dress and demeanor."

Unlike dat Moshe, some aspects of dat Yehudit vary by place and era. The accepted codes in Spain of 1,000 years ago and Poland 600 years ago are different from each other, and different from now. Even today, you'll find differences between different places. Nevertheless, certain basic rules never change, and it seems those explicitly mentioned in the Talmud are among them. For example, a woman who gets into personal conversations with any man she meets in the shopping mall, or one who speaks to her husband about intimate matters so loudly that the neighbors can hear. The Talmud also mentions other examples, such as uncovering the thigh.

On the other hand, there are certain aspects that are not spelled out in any of the earlier sources, things that just never needed to be said—until our day and age. For most of our history, it seems, it was enough to say, "Dress and act as good Jewish women do." Women just knew.

That brings us to minhag hamakom, "the custom of the local place." If you live in an area where all observant Jewish women adhere to a certain standard or rule of dress, you need to follow along. It's disrespectful to the community, as well as immodestly conspicuous, to openly depart from the norm. Few places today are so homogeneous with regard to dress, but should you happen to find yourself in one, be respectful of their codes. Keep in mind, however, that minhag hamakom only works to raise standards, not to lower them. If you come to a place where all the women are unfortunately lax about standard dat Yehudit, it's up to you to set an example and blaze a pathway to get that community back in shape.

This all has very practical applications. For some of those applications, along with a broader perspective on modesty and its preservation of female dignity, I would suggest that you begin here.

Mrs. Malkie Janowski


Source:
Tractate Brachot 24a; Tractate Ketubot 72a; Rambam, Hilchot Ishut, 24:12; see explanation of dat Yehudit in Shulchan Aruch, Even Haezer 115; regarding minhag hamakom, see Tractate Pesachim 50a.
PrintSend this page to a friendShare this
Comment26 Comments

By Malkie Janowski   More articles...  |   RSS Listing of Newest Articles by this Author
Malkie Janowski is an accomplished educator who lives in Coral Springs, Florida. Mrs. Janowski is also a responder on Chabad.org's Ask the Rabbi team.
All names of persons and locations or other identifying features referenced in these questions have been omitted or changed to preserve the anonymity of the questioners.

The content on this page is copyrighted by the author, publisher and/or Chabad.org, and is produced by Chabad.org. If you enjoyed this article, we encourage you to distribute it further, provided that you comply with the copyright policy.
 

26 Comments Posted  |  Post A Comment
Reader Comments
Latest Comments:
Posted: Oct 6, 2011
Hiking, camping, yoga, karate, you name it!
Personally, I hike and do yoga pretty regularly. For hiking, I wear either knee socks and sneakers, with a denim skirt and a long sleeve shirt (which you should wear anyway if you are hiking around deer ticks). Occasionally, I wear cotton bike shorts or cotton tights under the skirt (esp. in winter). For yoga, yoga pants and a thin but not tight long sleeve or 3/4 sleeve t-shirt with cotton-jersey skirt over the pants. The skirt is about 2 or 3 inches below my knees.
I have friends who regularly camp (dressed like they're hiking) and do martial arts (white skirt over uniform or dressed normally but only with women).
I have heard that there are very modest women who do wear only pants while skiing, for safety reasons. However, almost any activity can be done in a modest way.
Posted By Anonymous, Los Angeles, California

Posted: Oct 4, 2011
I am curious as to what you wear when...
You do sports such as hiking? Or, camping?
Posted By Karen Joyce Chaya Fradle Kleinman Bell, Riverside, CA, USA
via jewishriverside.com

Posted: Oct 3, 2011
What deception?
Maybe in your neck of the woods Orthodox women dress like that. I live in a community with lots of modestly dressed women. The clothes are all different colors, all different styles. Even the modest black clothes are often cut in all sorts of nifty ways (pintucks or ruffles or knife pleats or asymmetrical...you get the drift). The young girls dress in a ladylike, polished way. The women are actually more colorful and unique than the unmodestly dressed women around them, who seem to all dress in the same trendy and revealing clothes found at the same "brand-name" shops. The "frumpy frum wom[a]n dressed in black and dull grey" is the exception, not the rule. Even if you live in a community where that is common, you don't have to dress in a black or grey sack so long as your garments are cut modestly and not head-to-toe red.
Posted By Anonymous, Los Angeles, California

Posted: Sep 28, 2011
Deception
This article is really well-written and informative; but what happens in the real world is frumpy frum women dressed in black and dull grey. It's so depressing.
Posted By Rebekah in Hollywood, FL, Hollywood, FL

Posted: Sep 8, 2011
Karen Joyce Chaya Fradle Kleinman Bell
Some tznius swimsuits are hardly that extreme. My sister and I recently purchased swimsuits off a site and they have 3/4 sleeves, knee-length (or just below) skirts, and leggings.
As for not wearing colorful clothing, how can you feel comfortable when you're wearing a shirt so red you're a traffic light?
Posted By PoMaflah, Sharon, Massachusetts

Posted: Dec 29, 2010
Judy, did you check out that site?
The dresses for swimming look like the old dresses that the teachers had to wear when they taught one room classrooms as pioneers and were not allowed to marry. These are SWIMMING dresses. So, I don't think you know the LENGTHS to which some women will be "modest". It includes not wearing colorful material as well.
Posted By Karen Joyce Chaya Fradle Kleinman Bell, Riverside, CA, USA
via jewishriverside.com

Posted: Dec 28, 2010
Glory Within
A woman who has a highly paid position in the professional world dresses modestly so that men will appreciate her brains and not her body. Look at how top women lawyers and executives and bankers dress. They wear power suits, a long sleeved jacket with matching skirt over the knees, worn over a high-necked blouse with stockings and closed-toe shoes. It's no coincidence that "Dress for Success" tips for women usually involve dressing modestly.

There is a saying, "The king's daugher keeps her glory within." A proud woman doesn't have to display her body to everyone. Most courts demand that litigants and defendants adhere to some kind of dress code, because a court house is not a disco or a beach.

This doesn't mean that a Jewish woman has to look frumpy. She can still be stylish and put together. The department stores sell plenty of outfits that are modest but fashionable. A woman should aspire to look like a CEO not like a preteen.

Posted By Judy Resnick, Far Rockaway, NY

Posted: Nov 3, 2010
I just looked up "Aqua Modesta"
R U kidding? Those are DRESSES. If you're going to use a dress, ANY dress will do. These cover your whole chest up to your neck, cover your arms, and nearly all your legs. Cheaper to use a Burka. It's up to you about modesty, but PLEASE, if you are going to cover most of your body when out in the sun, then at least TAKE EXTRA VITAMIN D. You will be deficient in this vitamin.
Posted By Karen Joyce Chaya Fradle Kleinman Bell, Riverside, CA, USA
via jewishriverside.com

Posted: Nov 2, 2010
practical tips
There are now several brands of swimsuits that are "wetsuit style", but with a skirt to just below the knee and with 3/4 sleeves. Many, though not all, Orthodox rabbis endorse them (check with your local one!). One is called the "Aqua Modesta", but there are at least 3 other brands. Many can be ordered online if you do a search. Some do look frumpy, but some are very, very cute. Also, for exercising, you can almost always get away with yoga pants with a mid-length skirt over it and a T-shirt with 3/4 length sleeves. You can do yoga, jog, bike, etc. in this manner, with little trouble.
Posted By Anonymous

Posted: Sep 20, 2010
Modesty is so very cultural and geographical.
I have a South African friend who nursed in front of me, and I asked if she wanted a baby blanket to cover up with. It was in her own living room and no one besides us were there. I was EMBARRASSED for me and for her. Her response was that we Americans are so BACKWARDS. G-d made bodies and babies and feeding babies is nothing to be ashamed of. I was shocked at hearing a person from another country say that we Americans are BACKWARDS. The same happened with a South Korean friend who took me to a spa one time. I thought there would be nothing wrong, because it would be ALL WOMEN. When we went to the locker room, I asked her where was her swimming suit. She said we don't wear clothes in the pool. I was in SHOCK. Her response was, also, that Americans are so stiff and weird, because G-d made our bodies and there is nothing shameful about them. She said in Japan, men, women and children ALL go into the spa together like that. What was wrong with us, she asked. Oy, vay.
Posted By Karen Joyce Chaya Fradle Kleinman Bell, Riverside, CA, USA
via jewishriverside.com



 


The Big Picture
Is Jewish Pride Bad?
Were the Tennessee Firefighters Wrong?
Does G-d Really Care?
Is This a Sign or a Test?
Why Are Torah Punishments So Harsh?
Is a Jew Who Converts Still Jewish?
Why Are There No Female Judges in Torah?
Who Decides What is Modest?
Angry With G-d
Why Is Israel Unpopular?
Why Is Shavuot So Easy?
G-d Is Great, But Why Love Him?
What's With Chabad?
Life Is Not Fair!
Can We Drive Grandma on Shabbat?
Showing 8 - 22 of 196