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What Does Judaism Say About Gun Control?

Of Weapons and Wickedness

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As the debate surrounding gun violence intensifies, we present you the following essay, written in the wake of the Virginia Tech Massacre of 2007:

The terrible events of last week at Virginia Tech invite profound soul-searching as to what went wrong and how to prevent similar events from happening again.

We are all devastated by the horror and senselessness of it all. As a rabbi who engages in pastoral work, I--like most of my colleagues--know that the wounds will persist in families and friends and teachers for many years to come; in fact, for lifetimes.

One of the things we have seen is an intensifying of the gun control debate by well-meaning citizens on both sides of the issue. Frankly this creates a debate within ourselves as well. Many of us appreciate and are torn between both approaches to this vexing issue.

As Jews, our teachings tell us that preserving human life is the greatest human calling, and murder the most depraved attack on man and G‑d there can be.

The question is: What does Jewish tradition and law tell us about the best way to preserve human life?

I think if we honestly look at matters we can see that, on one hand,

  1. The murderer could not have killed anywhere near the number killed had he had a weapon other than a firearm. He was outnumbered by his victims 20, 30 and 40 to 1. Only a semiautomatic weapon gave him the ability to kill so many without hindrance.

  2. If there were stricter background checks and other encumbrances in place, he may have been prevented from acquiring a handgun legally.

  3. If no one but the police and military had weapons, it would be very difficult to acquire a gun, even illegally (as is the case in Japan and the UK).

On the other hand,

  1. If weapons had been permitted on the VT campus, a student or professor may have stopped the killer before so many were killed. As it was, only a person breaking the law had a weapon available to him--the murderer.

  2. The murderer "flew beneath the radar." It is possible that no system of flagging suspicious individuals could have helped in this case, or would help in similar cases in the future.

    It is rarer by far, but determined criminals even in Japan and the UK can get illegal guns. Just the other day the mayor of Nagasaki in Japan was killed by a firearm wielded by a gang member. And with 200 million guns in this country, it may not be possible to remove every one from circulation--even if as society we wanted to. Hence maybe law-abiding citizens should have the ability to defend themselves.

  3. Even if only the police and military have weapons –what if a policeman goes on a rampage against unarmed and defenseless citizens? Indeed, in 1982 South Korean policeman Woo Bum-Kon killed 57 people, then himself, in rural South Korea using a high-powered rifle and grenades.

    There is a claim that in the United States, many people save themselves from criminal attack by the use or the threat of the use of a firearm. Judaic law would seem to direct us to ask: Can this claim be substantiated or refuted? And if substantiated, we must ask: Which approach in the aggregate saves more lives?

These are all arguments wielded by reasonable, good and caring people –who exist in large numbers on both sides of the societal divide this issue creates in our nation.

So where does Judaism stand on the issue?

I believe the issue can be argued on both sides from a Judaic point of view.

I. On one hand:

1) Talmud, Shabbat 63a:

One must not go out [on Shabbat] with a sword, nor with a bow, nor with a triangular shield, nor with a round one, nor with a spear; if he does so he is liable for a sin-offering. R. Eliezer says they are ornaments to him [and thus permitted to be worn on Shabbat], but the sages say they are nothing but a stigma, for it is written [Isaiah 2:4]: "They shall beat their swords into ploughshares and their spears into pruning-knives; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

Weapons and their possession are a reproach to mankind –and not anything desirable.

2) Talmud, Bava Kama 46a:

R. Nathan says: From where is it derived that one should not breed a bad dog in his house, or keep an impaired ladder in his house? From the text [Deuteronomy 24:8], "You shall bring not blood upon your house."

I.e., it is forbidden to have anything likely to cause damage about one's domicile.

Rabbi Shlomo Luria ("Maharshal") points out that many authorities forbid raising a dangerous dog even if it is kept chained. This would indicate that a dangerous object--such as a gun--is forbidden, even if it is supposedly safeguarded. However he points out elsewhere in the tractate (fol 83) that in a "dangerous area" one may keep a bad tempered dog that one chains by day and allows to patrol one's property by night.

In conclusion, we are commanded to avoid all danger to our lives. There is no question that a gun is fundamentally a dangerous object, designed to kill.

II. On the other hand...

In Exodus 22:1 we read:

If, while breaking in, the thief is discovered, and he is struck and dies, [it is as if] he has no blood.

Rashi, the greatest commentator on the Tanach (the original, Jewish name for the 24 books of the Bible) who gathers together millennia of interpretation, comments:

"He has no blood. [This signifies that] this is not [considered] murder. It is as though he [the thief] is [considered] dead from the start. Here the Torah teaches you: If someone comes to kill you, kill him first. And this one [the thief] has come to kill you, because he knows that a person will not hold himself back and remain silent when he sees people taking his money. Therefore, he [the thief] has come with the acknowledgement that if the owner of the property were to stand up against him, he [thief] would kill him [the owner]. - [From Talmud Sanhedrin. 72a]".

Here we clearly see the rule, "If someone comes to kill you, kill him first." If we are told by the Almighty to defend ourselves, clearly we may possess the wherewithal to do so. In today's world there is no better tool--if G‑d forbid it comes to this--than a firearm. Only with a firearm is the proverbial little old lady living alone a match for the hulking thug. A baseball bat won't give her much of a chance. And law enforcement officials rarely have a chance to intervene to save a victim at the moment of the crime.

We indeed yearn for the time of the Final Redemption when "They shall beat their swords into plowshares" but it is a very poor idea to do this unilaterally before that point in history!

We believe the teachings of the Torah--including the obligation we have to ourselves to guard our own lives--to be eternal; but the technology to carry them out should be the best available in our era.

This obligation is codified in Jewish law as part of a range of obligations centered on preserving our health and well being, as well as the obligation to defend ourselves or a third party against aggression.

Under Jewish Law there is an obligation for a private citizen to assist another in trouble: "You shall not stand by [the shedding of] your fellow's blood. I am the Lord (Leviticus 19:16)" and as Rashi comments, quoting the legal texts of the Talmud:

"You shall not stand by [the shedding of] your fellow's blood. [I.e., do not stand by,] watching your fellow's death, when you are able to save him; for example, if he is drowning in the river or if a wild beast or robbers come upon him. — [Torath Kohanim 19:41; Talmud, Sanhedrin 73a]"

We cannot exempt ourselves of this obligation – even though in this country we have a wonderful and dedicated corps of law enforcement officers and other emergency personnel. We should respect them and support them in every way possible, as they have devoted their lives to the rescue of their fellows –but our obligation to our fellow remains: if we see someone in trouble we cannot absolve ourselves of our obligation by the fact that "professionals" exist somewhere.

One can therefore make the argument that it would be wrong to deprive citizens of the "tools" most suited to this task, e.g. firearms. Our Sages have a saying "A broken wall calls out to the thief [to come in]." If the law dictates that a citizen may not be armed –the criminals will arm themselves and be unafraid of opposition –as those who abide by the law will be defenseless.

Yet it must be noted that Jewish law forbids the sale of arms to people who are suspect of criminal intentions. We read in the Talmud (Avodah Zarah 15b):

And it has further been taught: One should not sell them either weapons or accessories of weapons, nor should one grind any weapon for them, not may one sell them either stocks or neck-chains or ropes, or iron chains — neither to idolaters nor Cutheans.

The Talmud extends this prohibition to Jewish criminals as well, clearly demonstrating the responsibility to enforce background checks on prospective arms owners.

What of the dangers inherent in improperly stored and handled firearms? We are taught,

"When you build a new house, you shall make a guard rail for your roof, so that you shall not cause blood [to be spilled] in your house, that the one who falls should fall from it [the roof]" (Deuteronomy 22:8)

The Rabbis derive from this that we must create "fences" in all dangerous situations to prevent "blood spilled" in your house. However the Torah did not forbid flat roofs –it mandates fences. We need to be responsible with things that may be dangerous, not prevented from having them.

One more quote: There is a fascinating commentary by Nachmanides (13th Century) on Genesis 4:20-24. The verses read:

Now Adah bore Jabal; he was the father of those who dwell in tents and have cattle.
And his brother's name was Jubal; he was the father of all who grasp a lyre and a flute.
And Zillah she too bore Tubal Cain, who sharpened all tools that cut copper and iron, and Tubal Cain's sister was Na'amah.
Now Lemech said to his wives, "Adah and Zillah, hearken to my voice; wives of Lemech, incline your ears to my words; for have I slain a man by wounding (him)? A child by bruising (him)?
If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, then for Lemech it shall be seventy-seven fold."

What is going on over here? What is this marital spat between Lemech and his two wives all about?

Nachmanides explains: Lemech was very wise and taught one son herding, the other music, and the third metallurgy. His wives remonstrated with him that the introduction of ironworking would enable the production of weapons and bring murder to the world. Lemech responds to them: "Have I killed a man, as great-grandpa Cain has done seven generations ago? It is not the sword that kills, but the bad choice by a man. Without a sword, too, a man could kill another by wounding and battering as did Cain..."

Swords do kill – but only if they have evil intent behind them

So who was right in this debate – Lemech or his wives?

Nachmanides leaves the question unanswered.

In conclusion I leave to you, my dear reader, to judge, based on these sources, where Judaism stands on gun control.

That being said, after all of the above to the extent that these arguments might advocate granting permission to private citizens to own guns, certainly Jewish law and ethics would ask, and demand the following:

  • What type of weapons, magazines etc., do they reasonably need for self defence? Only those can be in good reason permitted.

  • How can we make sure that those with a criminal past or the mentally unstable (as in the Talmud Avoda Zara quoted above) cannot access weapons? This would include restrictions on weapon ownership by those with whom they reside – as the unstable or criminal would then have access to the weapons as well.

  • We would be obliged to use every possible technological mean to prevent these people from aquiring arms under any circumstances, e.g a robust national system of background checks.

As per the above–qouted ruling that on the border one may keep an agressive dog, but not in more settled areas, we should accept the demographic diversity of a huge country and understand that citizens of New York City and those residing in the Southwestern cattle country might have very different needs in these regards, based on the ubiquity or lack thereof of law enforcement personnel. Thus, many of these questions should properly and ethically be devolved to as local a level as possible.

It is my prayer, which I am certain all our readers share, that we never again see parents bury children snatched from them in the very beginnings of their adult lives and that we shall very soon enter that era in which we shall no longer need to think of defense against violence as it is written: "And a wolf shall live with a lamb….They shall neither harm nor destroy on all My holy mount, for the land shall be full of knowledge of the Lord as water covers the sea" (Isaiah 11:6-9).

By Shlomo Yaffe
Rabbi Shlomo Yaffe is Dean of the Institute of American and Talmudic Law in New York, NY, Director of the Institute for Judaic Knowledge and a member of the editorial staff at Chabad.org.
The content on this page is copyrighted by the author, publisher and/or Chabad.org, and is produced by Chabad.org. If you enjoyed this article, we encourage you to distribute it further, provided that you comply with the copyright policy.
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Discussion (95)
May 2, 2013
Guns outlawed
When guns are outlawed, only the outlaws will have the guns.
Anonymous
ogunquit, me
rijewishkids.com
May 1, 2013
Re: BHO will protect the Jews
To Anon,

Interesting comment. Apparently the DHS and the DoD have taken the fist steps in more openly identifying members of many religious and religious related groups that are not "liberal" or mainstream they perceive as having members that potentially might become threats. Typical that the mass media ie CNN, NBC, etc has not featured this news on their front pages. I'm an American Jewish gun owner and I find many American Jews (secular and religious) naive and arrogant to keep trusting in government and society for their continued personal security and religious liberties. Things are changing. More time needs to be spent preparing for possible real-world events and social/political changes, and less time elsewhere.
Aharon
May 1, 2013
BHO will protect the Jews
Well, here we go again. The United States Army and Homeland Security have listed ORTHODOX JEWS as members of a religious extremist organization. Pretty hard to move to Israel in future when you are on a no-travel list. But, don't worry about a thing BHO loves the Jewish people, and will protect us....as long as we are not TOO Jewish, and keep acting like goyim and our non-Jewish neighbors.

This controversial Army briefing, titled “Extremism and Extremist Organizations,” was given to an army reserve unit in Pennsylvania.
A slide titled “Religious Extremism” listed organizations and movements such as the Muslim Brotherhood, al-Qaida, Hamas, the Nation of Islam, the Ku Klux Klan and Christian Identity as examples.

However, the first group on the list is “evangelical Christianity.” Catholicism and ultra-orthodox Judaism are also on the list of religious extremist organizations.

So give up your guns, and march to the camps, my foolish Jewish brothers!
Anonymous
USA
April 30, 2013
Gun sense
I'll never understand how a Jew can oppose individual gun ownership. With such a long history of persecution by governments, groups and individuals, it makes no sense to me.

We have more than 20,000 existing gun laws in this country now. Those laws have been unsuccessful at stopping criminals and the criminally insane from obtaining weapons and committing heinous crimes. Why should individuals have the right to be armed? Because when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

We already have background checks. They only apply to legal purchases. Criminals do not purchase guns legally. What is so hard to understand about that? And limits to magazine size only limit an individual's ability for self defense. Besides, reloading takes but a couple of seconds.

The larger question: Is it appropriate to deny constitutional rights to more than 300 million citizens because of the acts of a handful of deranged mass murderers? My answer is NO!
Lanny Greenberg
Jackson
April 30, 2013
Shmuel 13:19
Now, not a smith was to be found in all the land of Israel, for the Philistines said, "Lest the Hebrews make sword or spear."

This has a familiar ring to it, yes?
Tom
Oregon
April 30, 2013
Missing the main point
The United States government, and the governments of the several states, derive their power only from the consent of the governed. The Torah, ostensibly, is from God. Accordingly, the fact that the Torah may prescribe some particular course of action does not mean that the government is free to do so.
David
DC
April 30, 2013
This idiocy got 6 million Jews killed
Guns are like shoes... everyone should have lots of them. Disarming Jews is madness and it is this stupidity that drove me from the orthodoxy.
Andrew Gelbman
Albany
April 29, 2013
Easiest way to get another gun
The Boston terrorists wanted a second handgun. Thanks to Massachusetts' strict gun control laws and the low rate of gun ownership in the area making black-market stolen guns scarce, they decided that the quickest and easiest way would be to assassinate a cop, and they did.

The cop had a security holster that prevented them from taking the gun out, but had they known about that they could have brought a leather cutter to remove the entire holster from his body and cut it off the gun in privacy.

It is hard enough for cops to deal with armed felons they arrest, without having to worry about people their not even aware of trying to assassinate them. One way or another, cops will make sure criminals have _some_ other means of getting illegal guns.

So, no, we will NOT keep guns from criminals -- except by keeping criminals locked up. If they're not locked up, we'd darn well better be prepared to deal with armed violent criminals ourselves.
fsilber
Memphis, TN
chabadneworleans.com
April 28, 2013
So where does it stop?
Are we going to have to have checks to buy knives?
How about nails? Or maybe ball bearings?
All of these could be potentially more deadly then a single gun as we saw this week in Boston.
At what does a society stop and accept the citizenship should be the trusted group and not those voted into office.
When a weapon is not unique to the criminal then the advantage that the criminal has with it is nullified.
Who is going to decide what the checks take into account and at what point does that snowball stop getting bigger?
Jen once went to see a therapist because she felt depressed, well she is on the banned list now.
Mike's son is depressed, well he could have access to Mikes guns they need to be seized.
Once the government is trusted to make the decisions as to who has access and who does not, the government will do what is in ITS best interest not the citizens. The interest of the government is to be needed and to expand, have citizens depend on IT for security. Foolish!
Anonymous
March 17, 2013
2d Amendment
The Founding Fathers were as wise as a rabbi. They knew the right of citizens to keep and bear arms was the best and indeed only way to preserve freedom.
Yishai
Lockeford, CA
chabadnorthernnevada.com
March 7, 2013
It is not about guns or gun control
I am fascinated by this article. As a gun owner and active shooter I often feel at odds with my fellow Jews over this. There is a point needs to be made about guns and their use. They are not just weapons of destruction but are tools. Hunters use them to gather food and farmers and ranchers use them to protect their crops and livestock. They are also sporting items. Competitive shooting sports such as sporting clays, trap shooting, action pistol, metallic silhouette and many many others cannot be accomplished without guns. So just as a hammer, a useful tool, can be a destructive device if used the wrong way so is a gun.

It is nice to see that this practical interpretation of our rich Jewish Law takes a realistic view of our obligation to defend ourselves. Given our history, this obligation is a very important thing.
Rich
NJ
February 28, 2013
Our Torah paraphrases the NRA !
I am amazed; until I read this essay, I never would have believed that our Torah scholars had paraphrased the following three presently popular common sense sayings:
1) "When guns are outlawed only the outlaws will have them."
2) "Guns don't kill people, people kill people"
3) "If someone wants to kill someone, he doesn't necessarilly need a gun."

Question: If the Torah justifies self defense; how can "Jewish Liberals" call themselves Jewish; do they have their own interpretation of our master book ?
Anonymous
Medford, NJ
February 28, 2013
Let’s put it into common-sense perspective. There are about 90 million gun owners in America. A tiny fraction of less than one percent will go on to commit crimes using their gun. Most gun owners are responsible law abiding citizens. The unknown presence of gun ownership deters many criminals from acting. It is an assumption for anyone to claim that gun ownership in America has one simple and negative definition.

Citizens can choose to be sheep, wolves, or sheep dogs. If anyone doubts what I wrote all you need to do is study history and not be naïve to believe you can develop a nanny-security utopian society here in America. Unfortunately, most of the gun regulations being pushed in modern society by politicians are designed to control law abiding citizens and will make society more dangerous for good people.
Aharon
February 28, 2013
Responsibility
SDK of Boston said, "Many American gun owners, like Nancy Lanza, believe they have no responsibility to any value larger than themselves. They show a blatent disregard for public safety. They have no sense of balance."

I see no evidence that Nancy Lanza showed a lack of responsibility or concern for public safety. She was the first one murdered -- certainly she would not have lacked concern for herself. Rather, she failed to recognize the depth of evil that was within her child, but how many parents are willing to do that? Or, perhaps she did recognize the problem but society put too many roadblocks in her way to have her son institutionalized in a timely manner.

If society is going to be reluctant to lock up the insane, what about the responsibility of teachers and principals to be prepared to protect their children from attacks by the criminally insane? What about society's failure to allow (much less encourage) this sort of responsibility?
Frank S. Silbermann
Memphis, Tennessee
chabadneworleans.com
February 27, 2013
American gun laws encourage irresponsibility -- Halacha does not.
Irresponsible behavior that endangers the public is not a halachic or Jewish value. Believing that what is best for you is the only thing that matters is not a halachic or Jewish value. Glorification of weapons is not a Jewish value. Let's start there.

There is halachic support for self-defense. But there is no halachic support for gun ownership as practiced in America today.

Many American gun owners, like Nancy Lanza, believe they have no responsibility to any value larger than themselves. They show a blatent disregard for public safety. They have no sense of balance.

In Judaism, you first consider your responsibilities to G-d and to your fellow humans. Only then do you consider your rights.

Because our laws support irresponsible gun owners like Nancy Lanza, 20 innocent children are dead and will never go home to their families. We must stand firmly against her behavior and regulate a standard of responsible gun owernship for all.
SDK
Boston
February 6, 2013
Remember the Warsaw Ghetto anyone?
There is a publication called "Jews against handgun control" out there. It's good to read the many sides to this issue, already.
Susan Dunn
Utah
January 1, 2013
If the sun be risen upon him.
A literal reading of "If the sun be risen upon him" says that one is guilty for killing a daytime burglar, but it is interpreted by the Rabbis as "if it is clear as day that he would not try to kill resisting residents." They take as an example, a father breaking in to a son's home would not kill a son who resists (but they do not assume vice-versa).

I agree that if a burglar tries to surrender before he gets shot, then one should allow him to surrender. Make him lay on his stomach with his hands behind his back in sight and his head turned away, and try hold the gun on him from behind cover until the police arrive. But if he disobeys, he's lost his chance. A police trainer advises not to challenge a burglar in the first place (in lieu of shooting him on sight), unless you can do so from behind cover.
fsilber
Memphis, TN
chabadneworleans.com
January 1, 2013
If the shemesh be risen upon him, there shall be guilt of bloodshed
I would like to propose and maybe the Rabbis can comment on this, could the sun rising be metaphorical? If the thief, while breaking in, realizes the error of his ways, and repents (such as by surrendering to the home owner or retreating) could that be what the verse is saying?

English Common law recognizes a similar thing. Self Defense does not apply when the person is no longer a threat, such as by retreating or surrendering. We can not execute someone.

I seem to remember reading a famous Jewish commentator viewing it this way.
Greg
Baltimore
January 1, 2013
If you prefer to take him alive
@Yochanan David Naf:

If you try to capture a burglar, know that he might have a concealed handgun with which to kill you the moment your attention is diverted. If wish to take that risk to capture him alive, that's your choice.

But if instead you choose to just let him get away, know that you too will bear sin and guilt for the people whose homes he rapes after he is through with yours.
fsilber
Memphis, TN
chabadneworleans.com
December 31, 2012
As David did not kill Saul, think about Exodus 22 again. The thief does not have to die.
I am a gun owner in America, but I disagree often with the Oral tradition as it is used.. YVH led many a man that sought him into understanding and righteousness. To rely souly on Oral tradition (it is good to listen to elders, but not good to call them perfect ) Deut 30:11-14. Is short.

I question if I would ever use one of my hunting rifles on a human and pray YVH, will spare me the choice. I mourn for the animals I have killed. I do not agree that the exodus 22 account speaks of a decision to intentionally kill a thief with forethought as an act of punishment or revenge, and how many men kept an ox in the house? Read the passage, we are talking about animals owned.
2 (1) If a thief be caught breaking in, and be struck down so that he die, there shall be no guilt of bloodshed for him.
3 (2) If the shemesh be risen upon him, there shall be guilt of bloodshed ( summarized ), --The guilt for blood that spilled out of the thief, belongs to the thief and the thief shall make amends.
Yochanan David Naf
USA - would rather live in Israel
December 29, 2012
Common Sense
I never got to a murder scene between the threat and the act. No one had the time to say, "Wait. Don't shoot me just yet. Let me call the police first, then you can shoot me." We can't patrol along every street in every neighborhood in every city with ESP and know what goes on in every house as we pass by. Nor would you like it if we could! Only Hashem has that power.
When the 2nd Amendment was drafted, we were at odds with Native Americans. Had they been equally armed, we would not be living here. To keep and bear arms for personal defense was a given. The "security of a free state" was the reason we have the right to keep and bear arms.
"Infringed" is understood when a fence is off the property line, but with gun ownership, tyrants are threatened and infringement is used for their security, not ours.
Violence is something we pay to watch but we are appalled when the shooter is in the theater. Teach your children not to be violent. We are not to be like the world.
Tommy
Durango
December 29, 2012
A fresh perspective
Thank you for this perspective. I had written a post in my blog on December 8th on the teaching of how G_d's image is in each and every person and to always look for that image, shining His light into their lives to see it. When we lose that perspective we see humans as disposable objects without worth. Unfortunately, that is where we are in this entire mess. It probably isn't really a debate about guns, but about perspective on the value of human life. Absent fathers, dysfunctional homes and lives that are so covered in the muck and mire of this world that the image of G_d has been covered over, making it almost impossible for the light to reflect. Yet, I am an optimist and I believe we can make a difference. If I can love them and show them the love of my G_d and show them Torah! I may not make a difference to everyone, but as a story is told about a beach full of starfish and a young boy walking along throwing them back into the ocean, "I made a difference to that one!"
Lucretia Thompson
kentucky
December 29, 2012
Jews and Guns
In the late 1980's, we were living in an area that was having a problem with anti-Semitism. Synagogues were being desecrated with threatening & Nazi graffiti. We were friends with the President of our Synagogue and he was aware that my entire family (myself, husband, parents, siblings and their spouses) all had permits to carry concealed weapons. One day, the Temple President and the Rabbi met with my family and asked if we could arrange to have at least one family member at every Temple function to serve as silent security. It was a responsibility that we carried out with pride; we chose our seats by their relation to the entrance. We knew it was a MITZVAH to protect our fellow Jews. We must not just say "Never Again", we must be ready and willing to prevent it.
Anonymous
Cocoa Beach, FL
jewishbrevard.com
December 28, 2012
You would think
You would think coming from centuries of such a foul history of Government oppression, that most Jews would understand the logic behind guarding against tyranny, which was why it was written into law in the first place.

History.....which is Torah

Nothing changes under the Sun and many liked living in Egypt choosing not to leave. Apparently, many people on planet Earth still like living under Dictators, Socialists..... Pharaohs. Until they don't!

Having a pocket full of World Currency changes nothing.....but opinions.
John Smith
Moscow, Cuba, China
December 28, 2012
Dog argument
I must say that with respect to the Rabbi him quoting the ban against dangerous dogs is a mistake.
A major difference between a dog and the weapon is the dog's unique ability to kill a person without human assistance. Even its owner.
A weapon is not known to be dangerous until in the actual hand of a person. Therefore we can say that a breed of dog that is known to be aggressive has the status of 'muad'. (for those not knowing this concept, let's just say expected to cause damage) A weapon is definitely never considered muad. It's the holder we will have to classify.
And that is the ultimate Halachic argument against gun control.
Menashe
Los Angeles
December 28, 2012
Trains are not designed to kill
Even though trains kill, they're not designed to kill. That's why, if a mugger threatens your life, even if you have a train pass you still need a gun.
fsilber
Memphis, TN/USA
chabadneworleans.com
December 27, 2012
What Does Judaism Say About Gun Control?
It is interesting to read a Judaic view on guns in the article. The bottom line is that law abiding people have the G-d given right to protect themselves with a gun. Israel will never survive if its weapons become inferior to its hostile neighbors. There will always be evil as from citizens or the governments, and self defense is the most reliant form of protection. Remember recent history and The 1938 German Weapons Act in which Jews were forbidden from the manufacturing or dealing of firearms and ammunition.
Anonymous
Cincinnati, Ohio
chabadba.com
December 27, 2012
If I may: A comment and comments on comments
I am assuming this repost comes in the wake of the atrocity in Connecticut. Mainstream media outlets could not wait for the opportunity to create news and offer a forum to organizations, representatives of organizations to create or heighten an issue and manipulate public opinion. I imagine the lobby, for or against, in Washington D.C are raking in the bucks and shelling them out for new law, regulation--Yes, it sickens me too. One's perspective is his/her own, determined by her/his sociological influences. Yet, as Mr. Helfgott mentions it is a citizen's right to bear arms--without opinion, criteria, obligation, or ideal profile of normality.Some may consider gun ownership,owners as "crazy", however some may see it as a responsibility. Whatever the reasoning, this the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America should be no more a political, public issue than speech, religion, assembly, jury, seizure, etc.
Ms. Resnick, both are terrible pictures
patrick arnold
Cape Canaveral
December 26, 2012
Many things kill, they should be outlawed.
A train derailed over Mantua Creek in Paulsboro, NJ, a few weeks ago, and leaked toxic chemicals, killing many fish. Where is the outcry of liberal ecologists screaming "Trains Must be Outlawed, They Kill" ?
R. M. Adler
New Jersey
December 26, 2012
To Fred
You are certainly correct; guns do not kill without people pulling the trigger. And as a society, we must certainly take a good, hard look in the mirror and see what we need to do to rectify this situation.

This article only addresses the narrow question of whether or not it is right for government to limit access to firearms. For a broader discussion of the preponderance of violence in today's society, I recommend The Book or the Blade.
Menachem Posner
December 26, 2012
I am a Jewish American gun owner. This re-write posting from the original story after the Virginia Tech Massacre is an improvement. Thank you.

It is not a claim that gun ownership among law abiding American citizens save lives it is a proof. Current gun estimates are that there are from 290-320 million guns in private hands. Those guns can never be confiscated and most will still be able to shoot 200 years from now.

Some random thoughts:

1) America does have a culture of violence among a sizable percentage of the population. It is more prevalent among certain groups than others. Guns in the ownership of law abiding citizens are a deterrent and are used to stop criminals at least 1.5 million times a year.
2) There is no “gun show loophole”. All guns sales to and from retail dealers and consumers go through the FBI check system. Some states allow private citizens to sell their guns to other private citizens (not dealers) at gun shows and in private (at homes or wherever) bypassing the criminal background check.
3) All gun sales new and used between private parties need to go through the FBI criminal background check system. Mentally insane people need to be placed into a national no-gun-buy database. No, that does not include most or all gun owners as the gun grabbers would like.
4) Semi-automatics with high capacity magazines do, in theory, make it easier for a murderer to shoot larger numbers of innocent defenseless people. I wrote in theory since they have a tendency to jam more frequently and especially if the shooter does not know the weapon.
5) All gun owners need to safely secure their guns when not home. If living with a mentally disturbed person the safe or security system needs to be secured when not in use. Perhaps certain types of guns should not be in the home if a mentally disturbed person lives there. The shootings at the Oregon mall and in Connecticut were committed because the actual gun owners failed to secure their weapons.
6) More than half of annual gun deaths are because of suicides. Taking guns away will not stop a suicidal person. Gun-free Japan has a very high and sadly successful suicide rate.
7) Most gun homicides are between thugs and do not involve innocent people. Law abiding citizens should never have their right to self-defense taken away to save the lives of criminals aka animals intent on killing each other.
8) Many of the claims by gun grabbers are that x-number of children are killed annually by guns. Some of those studies include up to the age 25 for their definition of what is a child. We get pummeled with lots of misinformation by the phobic gun grabbers.
9) Gun violence has actually increased, since banning most guns, in essentially gun-free Britain and Australia. Non-gun violence in both countries has increased in both countries.
10) American Jews need to be respectful of America’s gun heritage, culture, and support for private citizen ownership of guns. There is often a Jewish American mostly uninformed and knee-jerk reaction in support of more gun control. America is not Israel and most Americans do not want to live in a security state they will never trust. The pro-gun community is aware of urban American Jewish support for gun control to include calls by some Jews to ban all private gun ownership and consider such support an attack on their freedoms.
Aharon
December 26, 2012
Gun control and free will
From a Torah perspective shouldn't we be discussing what has happened to our culture that has created so much violence. Shouldn't we be looking at how we can be elevating ourselves and others. Control takes away our freedoms to do good. It assumes that we are not capable of better. That is not consistent with Jewish thought. If we lose our free will/freedom we will never have the world we all desire. Guns are a symptom. Shouldn't we be looking at and treating the causes?
Fred Fox
Tiburon,Ca.
January 28, 2010
Let's put this in larger perspective. America is a nation of 303,000,000 people (legal and illegal).

There about 70,000,000 firearm owners who collectively have around 300,000,000 firearms. Annually about 7,500 people are killed by another in acts of violence with fortunately most of them being in the thug culture. Another 7,500 people are killed by accidents and suicide.

Up to 2,000,000 times yearly, firearms are used to protect people from aggressive violence.

More are killed annually by either 2nd hand tobacco smoke and by drunk drivers. Where is the cry to outlaw those weapons?

Among all the world's peoples, Jews should value firearms and self-defense preparation more than any people. Despite all their academic studies, modern American Jews sometimes seem to lack common sense.

Governments cannot be relied upon for anything or haven't people noticed?
Aaron
Portland
January 7, 2010
Solzhenitisyn
Absolutely!!!! No one shoiuld have to tke theabuse that any governmental body doles out. If they have to revolt, then revolt! We would not be here if we did'nt.
Jay Helfgott
Pomona, NY
January 7, 2010
calibers Posted: Jan 5, 2010
You fine folks are watching too many special effects movies.
A round that exits is just wasting it energy.
A round that does not exit, transfers all of its energy to the target.
Most bullets fired from handguns expand very little unless bone is hit at fairly close range.
Remember rounds of at least .40 are wide enough going in. Placement is what counts.
sheldon
Park Ridge, IL
January 7, 2010
Something Solzhenitsyn Said
The comments by Jay Helfgott and others remind me of something the famed Russian writer Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn said years ago.

Solzhenitsyn wrote about the dread era of the 30s and 40s, when Stalin's KGB swooped down on innocent civilians and carted them off in Black Marias to the Gulag. He estimated that about a quarter of Leningrad's intelligentsia was taken away. Things were so bad that a university professor deliberately committed a petty theft so he would be sentenced to a year in the local jail. When he got out of jail, the professor found that all the others in his department at the university had been sent to the Gulag.

What Solzhenitsyn said was that the intellectual Leningradniks should not have gone quietly into the Black Marias. He said they should have waited with axes and other weapons, and split a few KGB heads open. They should have made it tougher for the KGB. Those in other areas who fought back wound up not being taken to the Gulag.
Judy Resnick
Far Rockaway , NY
January 5, 2010
calibers
Posted By Jay Helfgott, Pomona, NY: "I reminded Rabbi Kahane, that the .22 will not do! We need what it is they have too. 9mm, 38, 45. 357, and anything else that goes in small and makes a big hole leaving."

The current thinking among police is to use an expanding bullet in one of those calibers that goes in small, expands, but usually does not exit.
fsilber
Memphis, TN
chabadneworleans.com
January 4, 2010
On Jews and guns....
Thank you for the acknowledgement of my comment. I meant every bit of it!!! I WAS a member of the JDL and am proud to say it. I reminded Rabbi Kahane, that the .22 will not do! We need what it is they have too. 9mm, 38,45.357, andanything else that goes in small and makes a big hole leaving. As for the comment by Mr. Puyallyup, he is partially right!!! Hitler took away all guns prior to starting his evil onslaught. It was only those whose insight and steadfastness to their right thinking mmade them keep thdeir weapons and beg weapons of those that would help. The mere fact that the government is trying to takde our guns away despite the Second Amendment is in and of itself a CRIME...
Jay Helfgott
Pomona, NY
December 23, 2009
Which Picture Do You Like Better?
Imagine two pictures:

Jews IN FRONT OF loaded guns

or

Jews IN BACK OF loaded guns

Which picture do you like better?

The world doesn't agree, which is why the Europeans hate Israel and the Israeli Army so much. Jews to them are supposed to die like bleating sheep.
Judy Resnick
Far Rockaway, NY
December 23, 2009
Yasher Koach, Jay
Much appreciation for the insightful comments by Jay Helfgott from Pomona, NY. In 1964, following the murder of a Jewish woman in Crown Heights, there were discussions about forming a Jewish self-defense group called the Maccabees. Although it never materialized, this influenced a Crown Heights rabbi and lawyer named Meir Kahane to start his own organization, the JDL. One of Kahane's famous sayings was "Every Jew a .22" He strongly advocated that Jews own guns in order to give muggers and burglars "second, third and tenth thoughts" about targeting Jews. Kahane's legacy lives on in a group known as the Shomrim, which although unarmed acts as an auxiliary police helping to patrol Jewish neighborhoods. Also you find nowadays that more Jews are willing and able to fight back. Anyone who starts up with a Yeshiva man will find himself being beaten up by thirty identical guys with black hats and hard fists. Yasher Koach, Jay. You and your father are 100% correct.
Judy Resnick
Far Rockaway, NY
March 23, 2009
"Swords do kill"
A man/woman intent on doing evil will find ANYTHING to kill and maime others. Hitler didn't use guns, he used gas. Stalin didn't use guns, he used forced labor and starvation.

You know what both of those dictators had in common? They took away personal gun rights. Obviously the problem is not one of our right to defend ourselves from evil intents, but dealing with those intent on doing evil.
Morris
Puyallup, wa
chabadpiercecounty.com
January 6, 2008
gun violence
Cant help but agree with the torah and the good rabbi, as welkl as Tom. As an N.R.A. certified Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor as well as a civilian marksmanship instructor, I have seen all too well the"do gooders" intervene in peoples second amendment rights and vcause more problems than they care to imagine.
For Instance, Canada, England, and Austrailia; All have uncontrolled violence since the bad guys know they can operate with impugnity. This is to say that whatever rights they have now are gone and will take a long time to regain by a government that recognizes the mistakes of the prior inept governments. There undoubtedly will be bloodshed before it evens out. There has to be. The bad guys must be made to understand its over!!!! If they want to play, they are going to pay.
Jay
Pomona, NY
January 4, 2008
statistics
A substantial percentage of the more than 11,000 homicides noted above were gangbangers and drug dealers killing each other in real time urban warfare. This is is also germane to the statistics covering minors killed or wounded.
Sheldon
park ridge, il
January 4, 2008
Gun free zones ...
"Gun Free Zones are a magnet for violence. Ever hear about an armed police station being attacked? "

No, nor have I heard of random attacks on shooting ranges. But the American left seems to care zero about that. They can look tough on crime without annoying their supporters by blaming guns instead of criminals.
Tom
January 3, 2008
Stats on Firearms
The NSC published the following stats with the original data apparently coming from the CDC Gov site.
2003 was the most recent year posted:
Total firearm deaths 30,136
Suicide 16,907
Homicides 11,920
Legal Intervention 347
Undetermined 232
Unintentional 730

I had thought accidents higher & suicides lower. OK, so now Homicides are under 12,000.

Liberty and the freedom from the potential tyranny of governments (Imperial, Fascist, Socialist, or Theocratic) has been so rare in history. Each day, in America, the political jaws of control are slowly closing down & down. Most people are too busy or blinded by smoke & mirror tactics to notice or care.

The more America loses its Judeo-Christian heritage, the more the future becomes one of an ethically-corrupt and politically-correct Balkanized financially-bankrupt nation that won't be able to get along. In 30 years, there will be 100 million more Americans often lacking fresh water.

Learn self-defense & keep your powder dry.
Aaron/Drew
San Francisco, CA
January 3, 2008
Lee, Jay, and Shaul, thanks for responding.
Murder is Wrong. Defensive killing, to protect innocent lives, is Rightous. Being unprepared to defend, leads to more innocent people perishing. Unpreparedness also shows a lack of emotional maturity, & responsibility to protect the weak. If you’re a parent & unprepared to defend your child, then you are irresponsible. This logic applies to individuals, communities, & nations. Sadly, many anti-gun American Jews are in denial of history.

There are 303 Million Americans. Unbiased scholarly research shows that about 2.5 Million times yearly; innocent Americans will hold-off or defend themselves with a firearm from a criminal attack. Yearly, about 13-17K are murdered in homicides (another 10-12K die in accidents). Do the math.

Americans gun ownership keeps many criminals from acting. Disarming will lead to many more murders. Criminals & Storm Troopers don’t care about being humane.

Gun Free Zones are a magnet for violence. Ever hear about an armed police station being attacked?
I’m Drew/Aaron (same man) from San Francisco.
San Francisco, CA
January 2, 2008
Be a fighter not a victim!
"Good people should never have to live fear of criminals or a government. Criminals and politicians should fear the people. "

I couldn't agree more with Aaron of San Francisco. But, as a non-Jew I would include the need for self-defense and reliance for all law-abiding people.
Lee
Augusta, GA/USA
August 1, 2007
Jewish fighters
I could not agree with Mr. Arons comments MORE!!! As a Jewish kid growing up in Brooklyns Williamsburgh and going to Yeshiva,and being beaten on the way home for no other reason than being Jewish, I was taught by my father who was a Holocaust survivor, and his friends that were professional prize fighters, and blue collar workers.... Dont ever cower, fight back with all of your might and whatever you can pick up in your hands at the time> You dont ever start a fight, you FINISH it!!!! It was and still is my credo. I have taught my son this and to this day he has taught my grandchildren. We have to teach all of our children,Now, not later.
Jay
Pomona, NY
August 1, 2007
Be a Jewish Fighter, not a Victim!
If your truth, within your heart, is that Jews are destined to be victims, then the mental poisoning of Jewish oppressors needs to be cleansed from your belief system.

Unarmed, what are your chances of defending your family from a home intrusion? Books don’t work well in defense & you can’t rely upon the police or divine help to materialize. When arms are banned, crime increases. When good citizens arm, crime decreases.

We are a nation of 300,000,000 people in a society that is increasingly losing its unity & ethical values. A huge tragedy will be to allow thugs, gangs, & a growing government disregard for the Bill of Rights, to have absolute unchecked power over Americans.

An adverse societal disaster can easily unleash the lower animal nature in many people. A civilized democracy is only one-political generation away from tyranny. Remember Hitler?

Good people should never have to live fear of criminals or a government. Criminals and politicians should fear the people.
Aaron
San Francisco, CA
July 28, 2007
I agree with Drew from Frisco.
I think the movie "Hotel Rawanda" proves his point well.
Shaul Ha' Yehudee
USA
July 4, 2007
Disarm and Die
Some very good comments by readers.

Do to my past lack of a Jewish education, I can't comment on the article's quotes of Jewish teachings.

I am a firm supporter of the RKBA Right to Keep and Bear Arms. Overall, I found the article to lack objectivity and insight.

Some thoughts to consider:

* During the 20th Century, at least 170 Million civilians (perhaps 350 Million?) were murdered by goverments due to war, genocides, massacres, starvations, & other police-state actions.

* Every society sooner or later comes down. From local crime to riots to natural disasters to plagues to nuclear terrorism; nations & goverments can't be relied ton to protect people. America won't last forever; its demographics & values are changing now.

* Goverments and societies can go bad, very bad & quickly. Consider your history.

* Criminals & thugs love gun-control as it's easier & less-dangerous to rape, rob, & murder.
Drew
San Francisco, CA
June 30, 2007
Gun control,yes/no
Refrence is made to Mr. Cohens article about his father. This man is PROUSD of his fathers heritage and his as well in posessing guns, and know that the best offense is a good defense. That being said, he is also right to state that, one does not buy a gun in a gunshop if one can avoid it. The reason being that one gets a better deal buying from a person directly instead of a dealer. The only drawback to that? The gun can have altered serial numbers, or obliterated serial numbers and may bhave been used in a crime. THIS IS NOT TO SAY THERE ARENT ANY UNSCRUPULOUS DEALERS AROUND!!!!! One just has to be careful. Relative to the Chicago police siezing the guns of the father, one just has to understand the history and integrity of this department... none!!! The felony goes away with a good lawyer. These fools have nothing better to do than abuse people as did the New Orleans police during Katrina.
Jay Helfgott
NY, USA
June 27, 2007
Now, not a smith was to be found in all the land of Israel, for the Philistines said, "Lest the Hebrews make sword or spear."

-- 1 Shmuel 13:19

Is there something more that can be said than that? This pattern has been around for a while now.
Tom
June 25, 2007
"Those who beat their guns into plowshares will plow for those who don't." -Unknown Author
Matt Cohen
fort walton beach, fl
June 25, 2007
Interesting article, as a Jew who grew up in the suburbs of Chicago, I am very aware of many Jews who were pro gun control. My father on the other hand was large into firearms, a collector and had a very nice collection. My father was unable to renew his FOID card because he was bipolar so the police raided our home and confiscated all his firearms and charged him with a felony. He had those guns to protect his family and to protect his country (America) from a tyrannical government which is what the constitution was written for. Our constitution doesn't give us rights, those are G-d given, it tells the government what rights they can't take from us. As someone who is of Jewish background, I know one thing is that you should NEVER trust the government and refuse to register or buy firearms in a gun shop due to the fact that they can be traced. Lets not forget how the nazis confiscated guns or what happened during Katrina. Gun Control has racist roots.
Matt Cohen
fort walton beach, fl
June 19, 2007
guns dont kill people,people do
The rabbiis comments were well written as they should be., As a law enforcement officer, I emphatically state that If there WAS people there with LAWFULLY LICENSED weapons, there would not be the carnage we saw!!! These folks who do carry both civilian anbd law enforcement, HOLD THEMSELVES TO A HIGHER STANDARD and that being said, are willing to take the necessary steps to quell a situation such as this. I in two instances had civilians assist me in a tight situation, and thank the good lord, I was able to talk the situation down. These folks came to me while I was controlling a sensitive situation, and if necessary, I would have asked them to use their weapons without any doubt. They indicated to me afterwards, that, they would have. Any person who is absloutely against civilians carrying weapons is absolutely deluding themselves. We had better take our heads out of the clouds beforew it's too late.
Jay Helfgott
Pomona, NY
June 10, 2007
Author's Response to Tom
The Statement in Bava Kamma is used by Maimonides and others to forbid the sale of weapons to those who may use them for nefarious actions. Hence, just as it is clear from the Maharshal, that the Bad dog has a use -for defense- in a border area -but there are still restrictions -so too with weapons. That being said, there does not seem ot be problem with owwning a safely secured weapon for self -defense. The issue is ensuring safety as well as keeping said weapons out of the hands of criminals.
Rabbi Shlomo Yaffe
west hartford, CT
June 10, 2007
Do those quotes apply to tools of self defense?
With respect: The quote from Shabbat 63a doesn't seem to apply. Perhaps weapons as ornaments are not permitted on Shabbat, but I don't see how that relates to a general principle of self-defense. The most restrictive interpretation I can see is, if you live in a rough area, don't go out on Shabbat if you feel you must be armed to do so.

The quote from Bava Kama may be discussing safety hazards more than tools of self defense. A "bad tempered dog" can get out on its own. A weak ladder can lure someone into believing it is safe, then break and drop them. I could derive that one should not leave an unattended gun where children or thieves can get to it.

" it is forbidden to have anything likely to cause damage " Does that restrict someone from owning a chainsaw to cut firewood? Drive a car? I doubt it. Why a gun? A gun is a tool like the others.

I agree that we should avoid danger to our lives. But, in many places, not owning a weapon is more dangerous than owning one.
Tom
June 10, 2007
Banning guns doesn't work
Gun control laws make little sense. You can't ban them and expect them to be uncreated. It is too easy to import one or make one in a machine shop.

Does anyone here think that someone willing to do murder will all of a sudden be intimidated by a new gun control law? Mexico has strict gun control laws. How is that going?
Tom
May 18, 2007
Not terrified, just cautious.
I don't own a gun.
I'm saving up to buy a Henry "Big Boy" .45 for hunting and home defence. You don't have to shoot fataly in every case of self defence. In the woods a good rifle is a nesescary survival tool.

I once read a story about some WWII vets. from Japan and the US that got together and dicussed war stategy. An american asked a Jap. why they never invaded our west coast. The reply was that they were afraid of the armed populace rising up to defeat them. In this case an armed populace's reputation diverted a major battle ultamately saving many lives.
Shaul Ha' Yehudee
USA
May 14, 2007
everyone a potential murderer?
In answer to David Kantor, I believe the Torah teaches that _every_ man, Jew and gentile alike, is a potential murderer -- so why should we ignore that fact? (Each is also a potential saint or Tzadik. But the point still stands.) But in any case, at the moment I'm more concerned about potential muggers, burglars and carjackers -- if they're not a problem, let's stop wasting all those tax dollars on police that could better be used for libraries, etc.

In any case, someone mentioned the connection between weapons policy and violence in society. Anyone interested should read www.garymauser.net/pdf/KatesMauserHJPP.pdf ("Would the Banning of Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide") from the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy. It's a real eye-opener.

I agree; let's stop living in the past -- the feudal past -- when only special people (the king's knights) were authorized to bear arms.
Frank Silbermann
Memphis, TN
chabadneworleans.com
May 13, 2007
Expected Responses
Again and again, all I read are visions of either the government or criminals coming after us. Does anyone here not live in fear?

I'm done with this debate. It's obvious that everyone here is terrified of life outside the citizenry of our own shtetle. If you live in fear and treat all outsiders as potential murderes, how do you expect to be treated?

Forget it, though. I'm done with this debate. It's sad that there isn't a single person here who can see beyond these paranoid fears. It's really sad. I expect my fellow Jews to be open-minded and to have a range of perspectives on gun control, and all I see is the same thing: closed-minded fear, living in the past. Wake up.
David Kantor
Altadena, CA
chabadpasadena.com
May 12, 2007
Gun control
With reference to "anonymous from Altadena, Ca. I must unequivocallly state that this man in an emergent situation would lose his life and cost the lives of others with him! The Torah tells us, an eye for an eye e't'c. and that a man is afool if he does not protect himself. If this person thinks that the police are going to be therre for him every time there is danger, he has been reading fairy tales and believing them. I can tell you this much sir, read up on history and see what the REAL REASON FOR THE ARMORIES BEING CONSTRUCTED ARE, it's not to store military vehicles and reserve drills. It's for the protection of the POLITICIANS and their families!!! Want to tell me in an emergency situation where WE are supposed to go? I'll tell you, no where near the armories. You had better revisit the facts of life what has happened to the Jews throughout the ages. By the way you might also revisit the liberal representatives you have running you and the state as well. Take your blinders off.
Jay Helfgott
Pomona, NY
May 11, 2007
Hippies? Chillush Hashem?
Hippies? Chillul Hashem?

My point was that 30,000 people die each year in the US due to firearm homicide. If we actually ban those firearms, and if we actually collect them like a responsible country, then we can save many of those 30,000 deaths. You'll not that the ban actually keeps the guns from the bad guys' hands, too. Important omission in some of the analyses above.

Anyway, I also stated that a ban wouldn't happen for another 30 years or so as the ownership rate of guns continues to decrease. Think about it. 30,000 people each year, cut down to a thousand or two.

What's that quote about saving one life is equivalent to saving the entire world?
David Kantor
Altadena, CA
chabadpasadena.com
May 9, 2007
re; Arms,Yes?/No?
I concur.
Something i've learned about fights is that no fight is fair. How would those hippies in altadema defend themselves in my neighborhood, when my neighbors boast of possessing contraband assault weapons?
Shaul Ha' Yehudee
May 5, 2007
Arms,Yes?/No?
As a Jew growing up in Williamsburgh, Brooklyn, And going to yeshiva, watching as my weaker friends were set upon and abused by the "goyim" before I entered the frays and evened the scores, I must say these few words for whatever they are worth. First, I came frpom a family where my father who was handicapped had imbued this in me; You never start a fight, just finish it; Second, his friends who were mostly "goyim" and were "prize-fighters" taught me how to fight in more than one way which I put to very good use! Third, when I entered the United States Marine Corps, and the Law enforcement profession , I was then further exposed to defensive needs. I have taught my son and his friendsm uch the same thing that my father taught me and then some. I go to shul every Shabbat and Yom Tov with a gun strapped on my hip, for defensive purposes. I will not hesitate to use it if the need arose. I think that any Jew that thinks gun control is the right way to go is absolutelydeluding themselves.
Jay Helfgott
Pomona, NY
April 30, 2007
Jewish sources
The Israeli Chief Rabbinate has declared in the strongest terms that a firearm is NOT muksah -- and may be handled and worn on Shabbas within an eruv (and outside an eruv if there is danger). Apparently, Shabbat 63a forbade only the vain wearing of a weapon outside an eruv on Shabbas. Even though R. Eliezer lost the argument, it is impressive that he even advocated such a permission! This dishonor is not that a man would obey the halacha of the rodef, but only that one would boast of it.

The Torah links arms with freedom. Freed from bondage we went up from Egypt armed. Philistine oppression in Sampson's day banned blacksmiths lest we make swords. Foreign protectors saved us from many threats, but the most joyous holidays (Chanukah and Purim) celebrate days when we could defend ourselves.

It is an easing of the pain of golus that the U.S. allows Jews to defend themselves, and a Chillul Hashem that a Jew would ask the government to restore this oppression.
Frank Silbermann
Memphis, TN
chabadneworleans.com
April 29, 2007
To Sheldon
"In the UK, home invasions greatly increase to this day since the law abiding populace has been disarmed."

Please cite your source. Otherwise, you might as well say that home invasions in the UK have significantly dropped, which is just as likely.

"There are over 100 million firearmens in the USA. It would not be possible to keep criminals from getting them."

And there weren't millions of firearms in the UK? 43 deaths per year in the UK via firearm homicide vs 30,000 in the US. Think about it. That's 1,000 times the carnage of Virginia tech or 3 tiems the carnage of Virginia Tech happening EVERY DAY across this country.

"While your belief system favors you to be willing victim, don't impose that on others."

Ridiculous statement.

"Lastly, the greatest amount of firearm violence in the USA happens in areas with the stricktest gun control laws."

Of course it does. Did you ever notice that the laws came AFTER the violence in those areas?
David Kantor
Altadena, CA
chabadpasadena.com
April 27, 2007
Pros & Cons of Guns
Thank you for a well reasoned discussion of an important issue. Very well expressed, as well. This is one of the issues where understandable emotion and good intentions must give way to reason and wisdom. I appreciate your bringing your knowledge of Rabbinical teaching and Jewish Law to the discussion with such clarity.
Kl duPre'
Poulsbo, WA
April 27, 2007
of weapons and wickedness
in response to the two dreamers in Altadema, Ca:
In the UK, home invasions greatly increase to this day since the law abiding populace has been disarmed.
There are over 100 million firearmens in the USA It would not be possible to keep criminals from getting them. While your belief system favors you both to be willing victims, don't impose that on others.
Many British Police officers are now discretely armed.
Lastly, the greatest amount of firearm violence in the USA happens in areas with the stricktest gun control laws.
sheldon h. steinlauf
usa
April 27, 2007
Gun control violates even Ghandi's philosophy!
A person refusing to own or use a deadly weapon out of pacifism is a hypocrite if she dials 911. There is no moral difference between using a weapon versus summoning and armed man to do so on your behalf.

Ghandi's philosophy of passive resistance requires one to resist a robber without harming him even though he will kill you for resisting. However, Ghandi told his son that if one will not do this, it is better to resist violently than to cooperate with violent aggressors. IMO, most people claiming to be pacifists are twisting Ghandi's philosophy to justify cowardice.

Furthermore, far from exercising Ghandi's philosophy, someone who promotes gun control is using the threat of aggressive violence (via the state) to force others to submit to violent criminals. That makes gun control advocate a partner in violent aggression -- no less than a man who grasps a woman's arms as another rapes her (for the sake of preventing the woman from violently scratching at the rapist's eyes!).
Frank Silbermann
Memphis, TN
chabadneworleans.com
April 27, 2007
Weapons Other Than Firearms
The author raises some interesting points in this article which are thought provoking. One point that is factually incorrect is the assertion that only a semiautomatic weapon could be used to cause so many injuries.

Explosive devices, incendiary devices, all have the potential to wreak havoc and destruction in large quantities. As we know from the case of the Oklahoma city bombing in the US, and nuumerous terrorist acts abroad, it is all to easy to create and successfully unleash these weapons.
Shai
Redmond, WA
chabadbellevue.org
April 27, 2007
guns
I own several firearms and know how to handle them. The thought of EVER using them to cause havoc is abhorrent to ALL responsible gun owners.

They are there should the need ever arise, G-d forbid, to defend ourselves against those whose goal IS to cause harm.
HY
29 palms, ca
April 27, 2007
two sides of gun control
This is by far the fairest statement of the two sides of gun control I have ever seen. As a life member of the NRA and as someone who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon I believe you have put together a realistic view of life and Torah guidelines as well. I am also a victim of a senseless killing whereas I lost my sister in a holdup in 1989. One must take responsiblity for themselves in today's society to remain free from tyranny of any kind.
Joe Smiga
lubavitchnh.com
April 27, 2007
One more thing
When guns are banned, neither the law-abiding citizens nor the criminals are able to procure them. Please note that. That makes a huge difference in the debate.
David Kantor
Altadena, CA
chabadpasadena.com
April 27, 2007
Gun Control
I've had long debates with others from conservative areas about this. Basically, it comes down to this. In the US, there will be approximately 30,000 homicides by firearm this year because guns are not banned. In Great Britain, there were 43 all of last year because guns are banned there. Heck, in NYC, there were 590. If you do the math, our firearm homicide rate is 100 times theirs.

Additionally, the gun ownership rate in this country has dropped from approximately 55% to 35% in the last 30 years. As we continue to urbanize, it will continue to decrease.

Folks, we live in the information age. The US government is not going to suddenly turn anti-semitic and recreate Nazi Germany. You are in no danger of the government doing this.

With all of that being said, we're very far from the point where the populace is going to ban guns. The only realistic solution is to go with much stronger gun conrol laws. Someday in the future (30 years), we can talk about banning guns.
Anonymous
Altadena, CA
chabadpasadena.com
April 27, 2007
This is a very good article. There is such a controversy over the right to bear arms. You have left me with much to think about.
Elaine Bouranis
Phoenix, AZ
April 27, 2007
RE:When only criminals & police have access...
As a patriotic american I belive that people should take advantage of our 2nd amendment right to bear arms. The crime rate in Yemen is very low in comparison to my country because every male carries a knife the size of an Arkansas Toothpick.
Remember the Warsaw ghetto revolt. Those Brave Heroes held off the germans with stolen pistols and molotov coctails. Just imagine if all Jews were armed, the war would have been short; very short.
Shaul Ha' Yehudee
April 25, 2007
Defending self and others
When innocent people die, and even more so when the murderer lives, our world is diminished. We must protect ourselves and others. That is love.
Devorah
Baltimore, MD
April 25, 2007
Gun control
I am currently a college student and my major is criminal justice and some of my fellow students said they would have taken action and I though about it and it made sense. Why not try and take down the killer. I have not heard anything about how the students tried it, but I also understand why they wouldnt want to. I do own a fire arm for the protection of my self and family. If the govt. said that we had to give up fire arms only the crimals and police will have them. I dont want just criminals and police to have fire arms. As you can see somethings are just unpredictable and I would like the upper hand as best as possible.
Evan
Modesto, Ca
April 25, 2007
To Kevin Chen
Kevin, perhaps when Olam Haba (the world to come) arrives, maybe when Moshiach comes, it will be, G-d willing, possible to have a world where people don't have the need to possess firearms. I, myself, choose not to own/possess a firearm; but I recognize that trying to forbid the 'general population' from possessing them, in reality, only emboldens criminals and terrorists. The guy who goes mad is usually just sane enough to know, Kevin, that it is you and I who will be, unlike him, unarmed, and that it will be the police who won't be there in time. Still, Kevin, there is nothing wrong, in and of itself, in you imagining the world without firearms; but not yet. In time.
Thomas Karp
New Haven, Ct.
April 25, 2007
I dont think the general population should be allowed to possess a firearm. Firstly if ever a guy goes mad and wants to kill people, you wont be there in time to stop it. Secondly, the risk of a ordinary citizen having access to firearms to go on a rampage to kill is far more dangerous and will occur more frquently than if a policeman does so. How many of these incidents occurred were done by ordinary citizens rather than some legal police force or foreign external terror regime?
Kevin Chen
Singapore
April 24, 2007
I am amazed; until I read this essay, I never would have believed that our Torah scholars had paraphrased the following three presently popular common sense sayings:
1) "When guns are outlawed only the outlaws will have them."
2) "Guns don't kill people, people kill people"
3) "If someone wants to kill someone, he doesn't necessarilly need a gun."

Question: If the Torah justifies self defense; how can Liberals call themselves Jewish ?
Anonymous
NJ
April 24, 2007
Jewish obligation and right of self defense
Outstanding essay.
We Jews must understand that we have to stop making it easy to be victims. Violent crime has substanually decreased in the 40 states where concealed carry via permit is allowed. The killer knew that Virginia Tech banned those who had the permits from possessing their pistols on campus. The unarmed people were lambs to the slaughter.
sheldon h. steinlauf
USA
April 24, 2007
outlaw all the guns
and only outlaws will have guns.
It is important to remember that, no matter how well intentioned the ban on weapons, guns are easy to make. A simple machine shop can crank them out. And there are thousands of machine shops around.

Just as prohibition only kept honest people from drinking, banning firearms, or any other technology, for that matter, will only keep honest people from having them.

Finally, humans use tools. What folly it is to think that if only there were no guns, violence would cease. One only has to remember the events in Oklahoma City, New York City, and Iran to .be reminded that those bent on destruction and mayhem can easily succeed - with huge numbers of casualties. Unless each one of us is capable of helping stop them - through means both peaceful, and, unfortunately, not peaceful, the violent acts will continue, as they have since Cain and Abel.
michael rosenfield
mesa, az
April 24, 2007
Author's Response:
Just as we must break the Shabbat to provide medical help to a person if there is any chance he or she may be in danger, so too must we break the Shabbat to defend the lives of ourselves or others.
This is why armed citizen patrols take place on Shabbat in villages and communal farms throughout the Land of Israel
Rabbi Shlomo Yaffe
West Hartford, CT
April 24, 2007
Of Weapons and Wickedness
I DO believe in the 2nd Amendment - The Right To Bear Arms. I also believe in Gun Control Laws as well. There's nothing wrong with protecting yourself, but guns are also a responsibility. They can be dangerous if you don't know what you're doing.

In Cho's case, the appropriate steps were taken, but he "fell through the cracks". Cho was clearly "a sick, twisted monster no one really knew". He went to different stores and websites to buy his weapons and ammunition so no one would suspect anything.

Hopefully, BOTH our Federal and Jewish Religious Governments learned lessons from the horrible ordeal at Virginia Tech and will ravamp and gun laws that need to be addressed.
Lisa
Providence, RI
April 24, 2007
Gun Control Stats is the issue.......Part 2
Related to Nachmanides explanation one finds that taking guns from law abiding citizen will just leave the criminals with the guns....

World Net Daily reported....
2004
One year after gun-owners were forced to hand in 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed, a program costing the government over 500 million dollars, the
results are in...

* Homicide up 3.2%
* Assaults up 8.6%
* armed-robberies up 44%
* In one state, homicides-with-firearms are up 300%
* Figures over the previous 25 years show a steady decrease in homicides-with-firearms ( this changed
dramatically in the past 12 months, in correlation with the gun ban)
* Figures over the previous 25 years show a steady decrease in armed-robbery-with-firearms (changed
dramatically in the past 12 months, in correlation with the the gun ban)
* There has been a dramatic increase in
breakins-and-assaults-of- the-elderly
eli federman
milwaukee, wi
April 24, 2007
Gun Control Stats is the issue.......
Fabulous article Rabbi Yaffe.....very sensible presentation of both sides of the issue.....

The biggest mistake people make when evaluating the effectiveness of gun control is only looking at the negative uses of guns while ignoring the overwhelming amount of times guns are used for good defensive purposes.

According to a Clinton Justice Department study conducted by Dr. Gary Kleck of FSU, guns in the U.S., are used approximately one million times a year for defensive purposes. Those positive uses outweigh the tragic negative uses the media sensationalizes....
eli federman
milwaukee, wi
April 24, 2007
To save a life?
It's halachically correct for a Jew to, say, drive a car during Shabbos if it's to get someone to the emergency room (to save their life).

Is it also halachically correct to spill blood during Shabbos, say, in defense of your family and/or your guests during Shabbos?

Of course, you remember when Muslim extremists attacked Israel during Yom Kippur '73.

Am I correct in presuming that G-d did not hold Israel amiss for retaliating in kind, spilling blood, because it was in defense of the lives of their otherwise lawful citizens?

In that case, would I also be correct in presuming that for an individual Jew during Shabbos it is also allowable before G-d, even in the space of their own home?
Thomas Karp
New Haven , Ct.
April 24, 2007
On the Virginia tragedy
I am a gun owner and I am not Jewish but I wanted to take the opprtunity to express my horror and anger at the horrible mass klling in Virginia. I also am, to be honest, quite surprised at the fairness and even-andness of the views I have seen expressed here. The debate if all guns should be banned and confisicated always rises up after such tragedies. Background checks in this instance would have not prevented the sale of these firearms because we Americans also value privacy. And the criminal in the shooting there in Virginia was educated. Education is only a degree of prevention. Many of the Nazis were "educated" but they were willing to justify their actions with theories and twisted logic.
John Wilson
Flint, Michigan
April 23, 2007
Withouth firearms the individual Jew is at the whim of whatever nation he resides in. We are all under the protection of G-d but He gives us the tools and means to better our lives. If G-d forbid the nation we live decides to turn on us how else can we defend ourselves or give ourselves the protection to run away. It has happened many times before but the Jews were defenseless. No matter what we feel it can happen anywhere even America. Firearms scare me senselenss but it is a needed danger due to the greater danger that lies in wait to reemerge as it does in every generation.

The tradgedy in Virginia couldnt of been avoided unless someone saw the intent of the disturbed individual. It should be more difficult to attain a firearm but theres almost nothing we can do in stopping a sick individual but finding the sickness before its too late.

We should ask for Moshiach now and one of the ways of doing that is by treating every individual as a part of G-d
Anonymous
April 23, 2007
When only criminals & police have access to guns..
Something to consider. When perps do not know who has a gun and who doesnt, they are less certain whether and what kind of resistance they will encounter. Just the fact that some students or teachers COULD have legally possessed a gun creates a situation where every student & teacher does not need a gun.

Of course as we know, VT had prohibited conceal and carry on campus. If they had not, the level of uncertainty for the perp would have increased infinitely. Since they did, the perp was all but assured there would be no resistance.

Also, B&E's are rampant in England and other countries were criminals are ASSURED only Criminals are armed.

In Switzerland & Israel to different extent, everyone MUST own a gun. Of course their populace is highly educated.

Disarming ALL lawabidding citizens always proceeds massacres. Just ask the NAZIs. One machine gun totting man can easily control 100 disarmed.
Micah
April 23, 2007
Defender of Zion
As a Jew growing up in Queens, we are taught to abhor guns.
Now living in the South, in the "gun culture", I have a different perspective in that I have the right and obligation to defend myself, family and innocent others. I think a gun in a responsible hand is like a fire extinguisher, you never want to need it but you are glad to have it there.
Anonymous
Roanoke, VA
April 22, 2007
What does Jewish law require?
I was speaking with someone who is a pacifict, and he said that if someone had a gun, and was about to kill some people, that he could not in good concsience take a gun and kill the would-be-murder at any point, because it would just be creating more violence. I was trying to remember the Jewish viewpoint and said that I thought it was required to take action, otherwise I would be coinsidered just the same as a murderer myself??? But in any case, he was not Jewish. But most people this question was brought up with said they would probably take action.
Anonymous
California
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