Should any physical contact that is friendly be considered intimate? Hopefully, it should.
49 Comments Posted
I found the article useful and very interesting to hear what is said from G_d's word. In a age where intimacy is taken very litely.
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I think this article is kind of brainwashing, because if g-d put us on this earht w. these sexual wantings, then who's to say what's proper and whats not, even if one is a rabbi, he's not g-d so he cant say anything on behalf of g-d unless he was asked to do so, which most likly he wasn't coz then he would be a prophet...
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I liked the article and it was very informative. I am just curious now, about something I never thought about before. According to this article it seems like they are saying females shouldnt even have male friends and visa versa??? So should I as a female who has always had mainly male friends now give them up even thought I see them in a "brotherly" light and have for an average of 15 years out of my 21??
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...Reading your article has helped define what I know to be the right behavior for me. Thank you.
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I am a male senior at a jewish high school and am constantly inspired by the lebuvatcher chassids ability to give me a clear idea of Judaism. I have tooken on the tradition of shomer negiah, for all of the reasons present in this article. alot of my friends have friends who are female, who they consider to be just friends. As friends they hug each other alot, however from my point of view the hug that my male friend gives his female friend is no longer something intimate or special, all it does is just become another hug.
On the opposite end of the coin I have friends who have "girl friends" where their relationship is more physical than the previous type of relationship where all the guy does is obsess about his female friend and nothing more. He then becomes jealous whenever his "girl friend" is not with him.
I find that if I become firends with someone who is female, there is a strong chance that I would want to marry them.
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Humans are sexual beings - that's how G-d created them to be. As a child, I remember visiting Orthodox Synagogues and having to sit separate from the boys and men and I HATED it! I did understand that gender segregation was meant to avoid sexual thoughts, feelings, and behaviors. Learning to get along with people requires exposure to BOTH genders. It's sad and unfortunate that the Mea Shearim section of Jerusalem, the world's strictest Orthodox Jewish community doesn't recognize that. I read that they even have separate entrances and check-out lines for men and women in some of their buildings! All the entrances to their neighborhood have multi-lingual signs telling everyone their neighborhood is a religious neighborhood and to dress modestly. It's one thing to practice common sense, but to try to "stifle" normal sexual feelings in yourself and in others is NOT healthy!
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I have read the explanations here and elsewhere but still disagree that there's something "holy" about these restrictions. Of course I'm not attracted to every male I meet (nor do I expect every male to be attracted to me). We're humans; not animals. A male dog or cat will mate with any female dog or cat that's fertile but humans are more complex than that.
The restrictions make people feel "dirty" about things that are perfectly innocent. Some of my cousins have had conversion experiences and become Orthodox (after being brought up Reform) so can no longer hug me or their aunts. It's ugly. It's not spirituality buy misogyny on the guise of holiness.
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I read your answer about not closing the door when a man and a woman are alone in a room. It felt like a Muslim is explaining the rulings of Islam. When there is such similarities in Judaism and Islam, then what kind of doubt there could be about their not being from the same on God. And if it is from one same God then what reason is there to reject one and accept the other?
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Excellent article. I wish it would be given to every human on this earth.
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whenever i read articles of this nature, i get a bit irritated.
the Torah dictates every which way of life and then the Rabbis of yesteryear determine how we should dress and behave with the other gender... why? because men are sexual pigs and can't control themselves - and that's why the restrictions are put on the women!?
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Perhaps the rabbis of yesteryear were more savvy (and candid) about human nature than the idealists of today. Perhaps they were ready to recognize their humanness, that certain visual stimuli triggers the release of certain hormones in the male of our species, thereby arousing certain physical and mental responses that can drive a guy nuts.
You can live with the angels, but we're down here on visceral earth.
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There is so much more to men and women than sexuality. It makes me sad that some Jews don't seem to realize that we are NOT just another animal - not every man is automatically attracted to every woman by virtue of gender alone.
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when reading your article, i had to think of my mom: once she told me that there couldnt be a friendship between a man and a woman because one is always attracted to the other. and its true. there is no platonic relationship. further this article made me more confident about my relationship with my partner. we live in different places and can see each other - if we are lucky- every second weekend. deep in my heart i feel that it makes our relationship more stronger but there are times that i have doubted it all. thank you for this article, it made me change my mind and be patient because now i know it will turn out well.
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Ok, so I understand all this. I've even been Shomer Negiah for nearly a year and a half. The trouble is, it causes an even greater sensitivity to touch - such that even an accidental brushing of fingertips can open floodgates of amorous emotion where none existed before. And previous to being shomer negiah, the same accidental brushing of fingertips would likely have only had a whisper of the same effect.
What am I supposed to do with all this extra, unwanted emotion?
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That is one of the goals of Shomer Negiah. That when you finally do find the one you are meant to be with, and can touch, it will be explosive and special.
For now, you don't touch people of the opposite sex's hands all that often anyway.
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That is the whole point. Just as people who quit smoking learn that food has more flavor, people who keep Shomer Negiah learn that their bodies are capable of tremendous passion and pleasure, which they must save for the right person.
Rejoice! It's working!
What to do about accidental touching? AVOID it!!!
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Well, Rabbi, IF it is true that men are helpless to control themselves because of their raging hormones, even without touching, just from looking, then we had better keep the men locked up so the women will be safe--or at least arrest any man found on the streets after dark.
In a certain Pacific island, a man will occasionally "run amok" and may kill people. Everyone "understands" he "couldn't help" it. Well, yeah! Since he gets away with it, he feels free to do it.
People generally will not engage in forbidden behavior of any kind if the penalty is swift and certain, but they will do anything, even murder, if they figure they can probably get away with it.
Men need to take responsibility for their own behavior and not blame their hormones, and not blame women for looking pretty either.
The law and the culture must hold all people (even men!) responsible for their own behaviors.
And so must we Jews!
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I wish I was Jewish. I know some may think it is stupid to be restrictive, but obviously the whole American system, of going right into physical contact and then breaking up a week later is not working!! People nowadays run through marriages and boyfriends/girlfriends so fast. When following these laws you get to be friends and wont have sex control the followers of these laws. I am only 16, consider me breaking the norm but I would rather not have physical contact until married. I am fine dating, but dating need not end in the bedroom!!
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Always forbid males from touching you in any way that makes you the least bit uncomfortable. Respect your own feelings. That is YOUR RIGHT!
At 16 you should be just starting to go out to the movies and to parties with boys your own age. In return for taking you out, they have the pleasure of your company. That is all they are entitled to. You need not kiss them and you certainly need not let them touch your body.
You can do this without being Jewish. Good Christian girls honor the sanctity of their bodies and the sanctity of sexual contact.
If a boy protests that he is not getting what he wants, explain that you are protecting HIM from sin.
Meanwhile, be vigilant...
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Jews, Muslims, and Christians--modest people of all nations and religions--know that men and women are sexually attracted to one another. They also know that humans, unlike dogs, marry and raise children together. So various customs exist throughout the world--even in tribes where people wear very little clothing--to avoid temptation among young people before they are married. Moreover, married people are expected to be faithful.
Only a hundred years ago, a woman could not be with a man w/o a chaperone. The automobile changed that, but the problem remains. Ever hear of date rape? Alas, all too common.
Problem-- My boss asked me as secretary to close the door. How could I say No to his' "innocent" directive? IF only it were customary to avoid closed doors! I quit the job!
However, contra Rabbi Tzvi's remarks, if a man lets himself get aroused at the sight of a woman, he can and must restrain himself from acting on his desires. Even if it makes him VERY uncomfortable.
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First off I am a guy. Even when I was not religious at all I never had a girlfriend. That is because I was overweight and nerdy.
I learned that trying to live up to that standard of dating and all that just led to endless nights of tears. Kids don't need to focus on dating. You think that only because you lack any knowledge besides the american social standard.
I can teach you this. I would have had many less tears if I was raised in this manner. And you cant say that is not true, I know it first hand.
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I believe you.
I applaud your resolve.
And even though you were not brought up as you wish you might have been, you still have the power to treat your own sexuality with respect. And that of others. And may Gd guide and strengthen you in your resolve.
And may Gd bless you in every phase of your life!
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I thank you for your blessings.
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You sound like a great guy! Nerdy means smart, and you say you were overweight, so it sounds like now you are in shape. You set goals (lose weight, stay moral) and do your best to make them happen. And you are proving the brains by what you have written. You have far to go, don't go off track.
When it is time for a girlfriend look for a girl like yourself: thoughtful, moral, and smart. You may not make a big splash, but you are going to be a man while all the guys who are currently "active" will still be boys. It is the difference between bragging over climbing a thousand hills or quietly topping Mount Everest.
BTW there is no completely logical reason to want to be Jewish, and it is certainly not necessary in order to be moral. We beleive that a person can be completlly moral, wise, and valluable and not be Jewish. Check out the "Noahide" areas of this website to start.
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Well said, Sarah! Thank you!!!
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i am 16, i am currently the only Jew in my grade at public school. i don't come from a religeous family but i have always been more religeous. since i was in Israel i really connected to my Judaism and have been attending Shul more regularly and doing my best to keep Kosher in non Kosher household.
it is on practicle things like kashrut and Shabbat that i have problem, because my family doesn't share my observance it makes it very difficult.
also; i have always been someone who hugs her friends but i am starting to realise that if i am acting like this at the moment what will there be for marriage?
i am constantly trying to learn more about the practicle saides of Judaism, this site is useful on Shabbat etc but i know i have far to go
i suppose any practical tips would be good
Shabbat Shalom
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Trying to keep kosher among nonkosher people is really really hard.
You are valiant.
Remind your family every day that you love and respect them. Show them that your Jewish practice is making you a better, more loving daughter. And stick to your observance. In a very few years you will have control over all your food. Meanwhile, try to roll with the punches. What HAVE you been eating? Fish? Eggs? Or just veggies?
Hang in there, and remember to demonstrate the moral power and improvement that Jewish observance represents.
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I'm leaning SO much from your website, and am very appreciative for your teaching. Where can I read about the restrictions of contact between the genders in the Torah?
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notice the incessant noise and whispers in shul every Shabbos. Another reason why the Law is restrictive -to discipline us from talking amongst equal genders.Imagine if we mixed on Shabbos services ????
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You must be kidding.
Orthodox shul services have more talking during services than anybody.
The Reform imitated the Christians and would not allow talking during "temple" (as they call it). The men and women sit together silently, not touching, not looking, just reading the English prayers. It's very boring and not particularly spiritual, but it looks nice if you want to bring a Christian friend (which they do). And everyone comes on time; if anybody comes late, everyone turns around and looks at him, because this is abnormal.
Conservative is similar except they still have the Amidah and they actually doven it in Hebrew and they still have the Hebrew for every prayer on the right-hand page. Also they still believe in keeping kosher. Most of them don't do it, but they think they should, and that counts for something.
So now you know and you don't have to imagine.
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Yes, Orthodox do talk more during services. Why? Because if I sit in mixed seating, I sit with my spouse. He and I have already seen each other, during the week, even that morning, and even if we do think of something to say, we know we will be able to talk later. But when we cannot sit with our spouses, we sit with our friends, who we may not get to see during the week, or at least not often. And we have so much to say to each other to catch up. It is a temptation, and a problem, but the talking actually indicates that there is a community in that congregation.
I've been in one very quiet Orthodox shul, the congregation was on the verge of a split.
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Great point, Sarah Masha!!!
I knew it made the synagogue seem more haimish ("homey"), but I didn't quite make the connection the way you do here.
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it is beautiful and sad when i look at how i have damaged myself and desensitized myself to things that i should be very sensitive to .
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these barrier laws are meant to and do enhance our single land married lives.imagine how confused u would be if you toucdh all the girls -then touch means nothing ! you have stolen intimacy from yourself. dont do that to yourself, have some self control please.
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I like your article, Rabbi Friedman, and I totally agree. After a 38 year very happy marriage, my husband died.
Now I am on my own, but although I am just a convert, my soul must have been Jewish all the time.
It is in my feeling, my instinct, that I should not be alone in one room with a man.
Although I really enjoy talking with a nice man, when he is religious and knows so much more than I do.
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Just a convert!!! You must be joking!!!
Yes, I'd say you had it in you all the time.
You unwittingly showed how refined your soul is by knowing that avoiding certain situations is the right thing to do, without needing to hear halacha,
Just a convert! I wish I had the instincts of this convert!
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Thank you very much, Sarah Masha!
I am sure you have the same instincts, as G-d gives them to all of his children.
Or better, He gives everybody what he needs. And when somebody has to fight more, to reach the top of the ladder, then his reward (and the closeness to G-d) will be greater.
Shalom lach
and again: Thanks!
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I almost enjoy telling non-Jewish friends, co-workers that we don't "hang out with guys" "touch" "date until marriage", even when our parents aren't looking...for the lookontheir faces. But I usually can't get farther than that. Why, they ask. Why? Because I'm Jewish! I would love to have a 2-liner to explain everything, that would allow the other person to walk away with a new respect for Jewish people in our preservation of life, modesty, sexuality....
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I take being alone w / a woman alone as taking a chance that I am going to lose my relationship w / G-d if I change my "consertative ways"?
My wife was in Day Care as a Provider for babies, and so were many of her friends at the time.
When asked to get something my wife needed that day and I was not licensed to be with the kids w.o. my wife, I went myself to the Providers house, (around a few blocks.)
When asked if I could come in to get out of our vicious summer heat, I refused as it would be only a minute.
By doing this I saved both of our reputations.
When I got home my wife was speaking on the phone to the other provider and my wife was acknowledging that this is my habit and practice so no one would or could say that I was inside her home for any amt. of time.
She was impressed!
But more than that my rep. w / G-d is intact!
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Certainly it's possible that when a man and a woman are alone, they may get intimately involved. But there are so many exceptions! I can't imagine something would happen if I ended up alone with my elementary school teacher. I'm sure we can come up with many such examples. Are the rules really so restrictive or am I missing something?
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Good point, but there is also the fact that sexuality is a natural occurrence, and while we cannot take it overboard before we are married or committed. Sexual attraction is not something to be stifled totally but embraced responsibly, I believe newton said that if we always think of chastity we will surely always be thinking of sex.
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Keep your friends.
Just don't shut the door.
And don't touch them.
* * *
He doesn't say to think about chastity. He doesn't mention chastity. He talks about sex and about the honoring and enhancement of sex. And about focusing it within marriage.
I recall a newspaper headline: a 12 year old girl was raped by her teacher, who said he wanted to discuss her schoolwork, took her into an empty classroom, and closed the door. My male coworkers said it was HER FAULT for going into an empty room alone with a man. She trusted him because he was her teacher. But if the culture in general frowned on a male and a female in a closed room alone, she might have safely refused to go with him.
And at that same job, my tall strong male boss would call me into his office and ask me to close the door. In the light of what my coworkers were saying, this was scary. I left that job.
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"Perhaps they were ready to recognize their humanness, that certain visual stimuli triggers the release of certain hormones in the male of our species, thereby arousing certain physical and mental responses that can drive a guy nuts." So says Tzvi Freeman
It's HIS body, HIS hormones, HIS problem.
HIS job to control himself.
NOT his job or his right to control women.
IF he wants to be modest, let HIM dress modestly. Let HIM wear floorlength coats & long sleeves & high necklines.
But when I see frum Lubavitch men in beards and peyos and tsitsis flying wearing knee length shorts and T shirts, I do NOT see them protecting themselves from sexual straying or from inappro sexual excitement.
I see them restricting my clothing just to make me sweat, to make it impossible for me to run away from attackers, & generally to penalize me.
Why do men want to restrict women? Because women have the privilege of creating new life, and men can't and are jealous.
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What makes you think there are no rules of modesty for men? Frankly, I find my one layer of long sleeved Tshirt much lighter than Tshirt, WOOL tzitzit, shirt, and jacket during the summer. And a skirt, just below my knees is cooler long pants. (and I can run just fine, or at least as fine as any one with my physical abilities.) When did you see any blackhatter wearing shorts? It is equally against the rules.
First off, no one I know wants to penalize you (or women in general) for anything. As for being able to create new life, it takes three. Women just get most of the physical part
When I dress in accordance with the laws of the life I want to lead I feel better about myself. I express my self-respect through my clothing. By de-emphasizing the physical, I tell everyone who I encounter that there is more to me than meets the eye. By removing the distraction of the physical, I make people want to know the rest, which is the more important part of me.
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That is an amazing way to think of it. Taking the emphasis off of the physical side of you, so that people get to know you first. Instead of showing off your body and then hoping someone actually likes you.
To Naomi
It can be looked at as mens fault or as a womens fault. Now don't jump down my throat here but when women dress in the "revealing" way they do it makes it partially their fault. This doesn't take responsibility totally off the male but when women objectify themselves than they should expect to be treated that way (not saying that way is right, but they invite being hit on and stared at).
What Sarah is saying is that when a women dresses responsibly she "un-objectifies" herself. Responsible dress leaves the rest of the responsibility on men, which is where it should be.
What I mean is that not all responsibility can be on men and not all on women. We must meet half way.
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I guess I should not be surprized at the wisdom of an ancient tradition, its is delight!
I think both genders need to respect the relational influences that they have upon one another. I would not like to see it so restrictive as to be oppression, but women need to respect the power which is innate to being part of one aspect. In the middle east you have an unwanted extreme, in the west it is a mindless extreme, which is driven by commerical exploitation. I do not believe civil behaviour is dictated by god but should be consider a reasoned response to a reality.
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it not enuf u have every inch of skin covered, now sitting alone in a room with a man is like having sex with him??
God made us to recreate, man with women thats how its ment to b since day1.
we have free choice so sitting in a room with a man does not necessarily mean that she wants to have sex with him. and since when does these rules stop perverted action within ur community, it doesnt in fact it encourages it in a way, 'religeous' people make up excuses, if i molest this child it wont grow up to be 'evil/sinned' where did God say that??? why cant u think about the child who doesnt know what is happening and never fully recovers from the abuse they suffered due to religeon/extreamists? wen u ban things it makes ppl end up doing it religeon shouldnt be this way!! it should be full of love, life, happiness, not laws/rules, death and hatred. men think about sex more often then women anyways men should have the rules as they r more temped to sin.
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Bella, you are blaming the religion for the actions of a person.
The religion prohibits these actions,yes, those laws really are wiitten, look at what we read on Yom Kippur.
That those who should be outed are not is the point of another, more recent article by Mimiam Karp.
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For every thing in our life we need instructions as to how to do any particular task, whether it is as mundane as eating - which is taught by a parent to a child, or as important as making a plane or go to the space. Every product has an instruction book accompanying to tell us how to handle and operate it.
So how is it that for our social life we don't need any rules and regulation in order to live in harmony. I wonder why is it unbelievable for the majority of the population that God, the Creator, will leave his creatures without specific behavioral instructions? And why will we choose not to follow his instructions while we follow strictly his creatures' instruction about every mundane thing in our lives?
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