Should any physical contact that is friendly be considered intimate? Hopefully, it should.
151 Comments Posted
I found the article useful and very interesting to hear what is said from G_d's word. In a age where intimacy is taken very litely.
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I think this article is kind of brainwashing, because if g-d put us on this earht w. these sexual wantings, then who's to say what's proper and whats not, even if one is a rabbi, he's not g-d so he cant say anything on behalf of g-d unless he was asked to do so, which most likly he wasn't coz then he would be a prophet...
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I liked the article and it was very informative. I am just curious now, about something I never thought about before. According to this article it seems like they are saying females shouldnt even have male friends and visa versa??? So should I as a female who has always had mainly male friends now give them up even thought I see them in a "brotherly" light and have for an average of 15 years out of my 21??
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...Reading your article has helped define what I know to be the right behavior for me. Thank you.
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I am a male senior at a jewish high school and am constantly inspired by the lebuvatcher chassids ability to give me a clear idea of Judaism. I have tooken on the tradition of shomer negiah, for all of the reasons present in this article. alot of my friends have friends who are female, who they consider to be just friends. As friends they hug each other alot, however from my point of view the hug that my male friend gives his female friend is no longer something intimate or special, all it does is just become another hug.
On the opposite end of the coin I have friends who have "girl friends" where their relationship is more physical than the previous type of relationship where all the guy does is obsess about his female friend and nothing more. He then becomes jealous whenever his "girl friend" is not with him.
I find that if I become firends with someone who is female, there is a strong chance that I would want to marry them.
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Humans are sexual beings - that's how G-d created them to be. As a child, I remember visiting Orthodox Synagogues and having to sit separate from the boys and men and I HATED it! I did understand that gender segregation was meant to avoid sexual thoughts, feelings, and behaviors. Learning to get along with people requires exposure to BOTH genders. It's sad and unfortunate that the Mea Shearim section of Jerusalem, the world's strictest Orthodox Jewish community doesn't recognize that. I read that they even have separate entrances and check-out lines for men and women in some of their buildings! All the entrances to their neighborhood have multi-lingual signs telling everyone their neighborhood is a religious neighborhood and to dress modestly. It's one thing to practice common sense, but to try to "stifle" normal sexual feelings in yourself and in others is NOT healthy!
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I have read the explanations here and elsewhere but still disagree that there's something "holy" about these restrictions. Of course I'm not attracted to every male I meet (nor do I expect every male to be attracted to me). We're humans; not animals. A male dog or cat will mate with any female dog or cat that's fertile but humans are more complex than that.
The restrictions make people feel "dirty" about things that are perfectly innocent. Some of my cousins have had conversion experiences and become Orthodox (after being brought up Reform) so can no longer hug me or their aunts. It's ugly. It's not spirituality buy misogyny on the guise of holiness.
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I read your answer about not closing the door when a man and a woman are alone in a room. It felt like a Muslim is explaining the rulings of Islam. When there is such similarities in Judaism and Islam, then what kind of doubt there could be about their not being from the same on God. And if it is from one same God then what reason is there to reject one and accept the other?
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Excellent article. I wish it would be given to every human on this earth.
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whenever i read articles of this nature, i get a bit irritated.
the Torah dictates every which way of life and then the Rabbis of yesteryear determine how we should dress and behave with the other gender... why? because men are sexual pigs and can't control themselves - and that's why the restrictions are put on the women!?
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Perhaps the rabbis of yesteryear were more savvy (and candid) about human nature than the idealists of today. Perhaps they were ready to recognize their humanness, that certain visual stimuli triggers the release of certain hormones in the male of our species, thereby arousing certain physical and mental responses that can drive a guy nuts.
You can live with the angels, but we're down here on visceral earth.
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There is so much more to men and women than sexuality. It makes me sad that some Jews don't seem to realize that we are NOT just another animal - not every man is automatically attracted to every woman by virtue of gender alone.
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when reading your article, i had to think of my mom: once she told me that there couldnt be a friendship between a man and a woman because one is always attracted to the other. and its true. there is no platonic relationship. further this article made me more confident about my relationship with my partner. we live in different places and can see each other - if we are lucky- every second weekend. deep in my heart i feel that it makes our relationship more stronger but there are times that i have doubted it all. thank you for this article, it made me change my mind and be patient because now i know it will turn out well.
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Ok, so I understand all this. I've even been Shomer Negiah for nearly a year and a half. The trouble is, it causes an even greater sensitivity to touch - such that even an accidental brushing of fingertips can open floodgates of amorous emotion where none existed before. And previous to being shomer negiah, the same accidental brushing of fingertips would likely have only had a whisper of the same effect.
What am I supposed to do with all this extra, unwanted emotion?
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That is one of the goals of Shomer Negiah. That when you finally do find the one you are meant to be with, and can touch, it will be explosive and special.
For now, you don't touch people of the opposite sex's hands all that often anyway.
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That is the whole point. Just as people who quit smoking learn that food has more flavor, people who keep Shomer Negiah learn that their bodies are capable of tremendous passion and pleasure, which they must save for the right person.
Rejoice! It's working!
What to do about accidental touching? AVOID it!!!
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Well, Rabbi, IF it is true that men are helpless to control themselves because of their raging hormones, even without touching, just from looking, then we had better keep the men locked up so the women will be safe--or at least arrest any man found on the streets after dark.
In a certain Pacific island, a man will occasionally "run amok" and may kill people. Everyone "understands" he "couldn't help" it. Well, yeah! Since he gets away with it, he feels free to do it.
People generally will not engage in forbidden behavior of any kind if the penalty is swift and certain, but they will do anything, even murder, if they figure they can probably get away with it.
Men need to take responsibility for their own behavior and not blame their hormones, and not blame women for looking pretty either.
The law and the culture must hold all people (even men!) responsible for their own behaviors.
And so must we Jews!
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I wish I was Jewish. I know some may think it is stupid to be restrictive, but obviously the whole American system, of going right into physical contact and then breaking up a week later is not working!! People nowadays run through marriages and boyfriends/girlfriends so fast. When following these laws you get to be friends and wont have sex control the followers of these laws. I am only 16, consider me breaking the norm but I would rather not have physical contact until married. I am fine dating, but dating need not end in the bedroom!!
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Always forbid males from touching you in any way that makes you the least bit uncomfortable. Respect your own feelings. That is YOUR RIGHT!
At 16 you should be just starting to go out to the movies and to parties with boys your own age. In return for taking you out, they have the pleasure of your company. That is all they are entitled to. You need not kiss them and you certainly need not let them touch your body.
You can do this without being Jewish. Good Christian girls honor the sanctity of their bodies and the sanctity of sexual contact.
If a boy protests that he is not getting what he wants, explain that you are protecting HIM from sin.
Meanwhile, be vigilant...
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Jews, Muslims, and Christians--modest people of all nations and religions--know that men and women are sexually attracted to one another. They also know that humans, unlike dogs, marry and raise children together. So various customs exist throughout the world--even in tribes where people wear very little clothing--to avoid temptation among young people before they are married. Moreover, married people are expected to be faithful.
Only a hundred years ago, a woman could not be with a man w/o a chaperone. The automobile changed that, but the problem remains. Ever hear of date rape? Alas, all too common.
Problem-- My boss asked me as secretary to close the door. How could I say No to his' "innocent" directive? IF only it were customary to avoid closed doors! I quit the job!
However, contra Rabbi Tzvi's remarks, if a man lets himself get aroused at the sight of a woman, he can and must restrain himself from acting on his desires. Even if it makes him VERY uncomfortable.
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First off I am a guy. Even when I was not religious at all I never had a girlfriend. That is because I was overweight and nerdy.
I learned that trying to live up to that standard of dating and all that just led to endless nights of tears. Kids don't need to focus on dating. You think that only because you lack any knowledge besides the american social standard.
I can teach you this. I would have had many less tears if I was raised in this manner. And you cant say that is not true, I know it first hand.
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I believe you.
I applaud your resolve.
And even though you were not brought up as you wish you might have been, you still have the power to treat your own sexuality with respect. And that of others. And may Gd guide and strengthen you in your resolve.
And may Gd bless you in every phase of your life!
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I thank you for your blessings.
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You sound like a great guy! Nerdy means smart, and you say you were overweight, so it sounds like now you are in shape. You set goals (lose weight, stay moral) and do your best to make them happen. And you are proving the brains by what you have written. You have far to go, don't go off track.
When it is time for a girlfriend look for a girl like yourself: thoughtful, moral, and smart. You may not make a big splash, but you are going to be a man while all the guys who are currently "active" will still be boys. It is the difference between bragging over climbing a thousand hills or quietly topping Mount Everest.
BTW there is no completely logical reason to want to be Jewish, and it is certainly not necessary in order to be moral. We beleive that a person can be completlly moral, wise, and valluable and not be Jewish. Check out the "Noahide" areas of this website to start.
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Well said, Sarah! Thank you!!!
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i am 16, i am currently the only Jew in my grade at public school. i don't come from a religeous family but i have always been more religeous. since i was in Israel i really connected to my Judaism and have been attending Shul more regularly and doing my best to keep Kosher in non Kosher household.
it is on practicle things like kashrut and Shabbat that i have problem, because my family doesn't share my observance it makes it very difficult.
also; i have always been someone who hugs her friends but i am starting to realise that if i am acting like this at the moment what will there be for marriage?
i am constantly trying to learn more about the practicle saides of Judaism, this site is useful on Shabbat etc but i know i have far to go
i suppose any practical tips would be good
Shabbat Shalom
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Trying to keep kosher among nonkosher people is really really hard.
You are valiant.
Remind your family every day that you love and respect them. Show them that your Jewish practice is making you a better, more loving daughter. And stick to your observance. In a very few years you will have control over all your food. Meanwhile, try to roll with the punches. What HAVE you been eating? Fish? Eggs? Or just veggies?
Hang in there, and remember to demonstrate the moral power and improvement that Jewish observance represents.
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I'm leaning SO much from your website, and am very appreciative for your teaching. Where can I read about the restrictions of contact between the genders in the Torah?
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notice the incessant noise and whispers in shul every Shabbos. Another reason why the Law is restrictive -to discipline us from talking amongst equal genders.Imagine if we mixed on Shabbos services ????
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You must be kidding.
Orthodox shul services have more talking during services than anybody.
The Reform imitated the Christians and would not allow talking during "temple" (as they call it). The men and women sit together silently, not touching, not looking, just reading the English prayers. It's very boring and not particularly spiritual, but it looks nice if you want to bring a Christian friend (which they do). And everyone comes on time; if anybody comes late, everyone turns around and looks at him, because this is abnormal.
Conservative is similar except they still have the Amidah and they actually doven it in Hebrew and they still have the Hebrew for every prayer on the right-hand page. Also they still believe in keeping kosher. Most of them don't do it, but they think they should, and that counts for something.
So now you know and you don't have to imagine.
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Yes, Orthodox do talk more during services. Why? Because if I sit in mixed seating, I sit with my spouse. He and I have already seen each other, during the week, even that morning, and even if we do think of something to say, we know we will be able to talk later. But when we cannot sit with our spouses, we sit with our friends, who we may not get to see during the week, or at least not often. And we have so much to say to each other to catch up. It is a temptation, and a problem, but the talking actually indicates that there is a community in that congregation.
I've been in one very quiet Orthodox shul, the congregation was on the verge of a split.
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Great point, Sarah Masha!!!
I knew it made the synagogue seem more haimish ("homey"), but I didn't quite make the connection the way you do here.
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it is beautiful and sad when i look at how i have damaged myself and desensitized myself to things that i should be very sensitive to .
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these barrier laws are meant to and do enhance our single land married lives.imagine how confused u would be if you toucdh all the girls -then touch means nothing ! you have stolen intimacy from yourself. dont do that to yourself, have some self control please.
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I like your article, Rabbi Friedman, and I totally agree. After a 38 year very happy marriage, my husband died.
Now I am on my own, but although I am just a convert, my soul must have been Jewish all the time.
It is in my feeling, my instinct, that I should not be alone in one room with a man.
Although I really enjoy talking with a nice man, when he is religious and knows so much more than I do.
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Just a convert!!! You must be joking!!!
Yes, I'd say you had it in you all the time.
You unwittingly showed how refined your soul is by knowing that avoiding certain situations is the right thing to do, without needing to hear halacha,
Just a convert! I wish I had the instincts of this convert!
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Thank you very much, Sarah Masha!
I am sure you have the same instincts, as G-d gives them to all of his children.
Or better, He gives everybody what he needs. And when somebody has to fight more, to reach the top of the ladder, then his reward (and the closeness to G-d) will be greater.
Shalom lach
and again: Thanks!
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I almost enjoy telling non-Jewish friends, co-workers that we don't "hang out with guys" "touch" "date until marriage", even when our parents aren't looking...for the lookontheir faces. But I usually can't get farther than that. Why, they ask. Why? Because I'm Jewish! I would love to have a 2-liner to explain everything, that would allow the other person to walk away with a new respect for Jewish people in our preservation of life, modesty, sexuality....
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I take being alone w / a woman alone as taking a chance that I am going to lose my relationship w / G-d if I change my "consertative ways"?
My wife was in Day Care as a Provider for babies, and so were many of her friends at the time.
When asked to get something my wife needed that day and I was not licensed to be with the kids w.o. my wife, I went myself to the Providers house, (around a few blocks.)
When asked if I could come in to get out of our vicious summer heat, I refused as it would be only a minute.
By doing this I saved both of our reputations.
When I got home my wife was speaking on the phone to the other provider and my wife was acknowledging that this is my habit and practice so no one would or could say that I was inside her home for any amt. of time.
She was impressed!
But more than that my rep. w / G-d is intact!
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Certainly it's possible that when a man and a woman are alone, they may get intimately involved. But there are so many exceptions! I can't imagine something would happen if I ended up alone with my elementary school teacher. I'm sure we can come up with many such examples. Are the rules really so restrictive or am I missing something?
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Good point, but there is also the fact that sexuality is a natural occurrence, and while we cannot take it overboard before we are married or committed. Sexual attraction is not something to be stifled totally but embraced responsibly, I believe newton said that if we always think of chastity we will surely always be thinking of sex.
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Keep your friends.
Just don't shut the door.
And don't touch them.
* * *
He doesn't say to think about chastity. He doesn't mention chastity. He talks about sex and about the honoring and enhancement of sex. And about focusing it within marriage.
I recall a newspaper headline: a 12 year old girl was raped by her teacher, who said he wanted to discuss her schoolwork, took her into an empty classroom, and closed the door. My male coworkers said it was HER FAULT for going into an empty room alone with a man. She trusted him because he was her teacher. But if the culture in general frowned on a male and a female in a closed room alone, she might have safely refused to go with him.
And at that same job, my tall strong male boss would call me into his office and ask me to close the door. In the light of what my coworkers were saying, this was scary. I left that job.
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"Perhaps they were ready to recognize their humanness, that certain visual stimuli triggers the release of certain hormones in the male of our species, thereby arousing certain physical and mental responses that can drive a guy nuts." So says Tzvi Freeman
It's HIS body, HIS hormones, HIS problem.
HIS job to control himself.
NOT his job or his right to control women.
IF he wants to be modest, let HIM dress modestly. Let HIM wear floorlength coats & long sleeves & high necklines.
But when I see frum Lubavitch men in beards and peyos and tsitsis flying wearing knee length shorts and T shirts, I do NOT see them protecting themselves from sexual straying or from inappro sexual excitement.
I see them restricting my clothing just to make me sweat, to make it impossible for me to run away from attackers, & generally to penalize me.
Why do men want to restrict women? Because women have the privilege of creating new life, and men can't and are jealous.
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What makes you think there are no rules of modesty for men? Frankly, I find my one layer of long sleeved Tshirt much lighter than Tshirt, WOOL tzitzit, shirt, and jacket during the summer. And a skirt, just below my knees is cooler long pants. (and I can run just fine, or at least as fine as any one with my physical abilities.) When did you see any blackhatter wearing shorts? It is equally against the rules.
First off, no one I know wants to penalize you (or women in general) for anything. As for being able to create new life, it takes three. Women just get most of the physical part
When I dress in accordance with the laws of the life I want to lead I feel better about myself. I express my self-respect through my clothing. By de-emphasizing the physical, I tell everyone who I encounter that there is more to me than meets the eye. By removing the distraction of the physical, I make people want to know the rest, which is the more important part of me.
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That is an amazing way to think of it. Taking the emphasis off of the physical side of you, so that people get to know you first. Instead of showing off your body and then hoping someone actually likes you.
To Naomi
It can be looked at as mens fault or as a womens fault. Now don't jump down my throat here but when women dress in the "revealing" way they do it makes it partially their fault. This doesn't take responsibility totally off the male but when women objectify themselves than they should expect to be treated that way (not saying that way is right, but they invite being hit on and stared at).
What Sarah is saying is that when a women dresses responsibly she "un-objectifies" herself. Responsible dress leaves the rest of the responsibility on men, which is where it should be.
What I mean is that not all responsibility can be on men and not all on women. We must meet half way.
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I guess I should not be surprized at the wisdom of an ancient tradition, its is delight!
I think both genders need to respect the relational influences that they have upon one another. I would not like to see it so restrictive as to be oppression, but women need to respect the power which is innate to being part of one aspect. In the middle east you have an unwanted extreme, in the west it is a mindless extreme, which is driven by commerical exploitation. I do not believe civil behaviour is dictated by god but should be consider a reasoned response to a reality.
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it not enuf u have every inch of skin covered, now sitting alone in a room with a man is like having sex with him??
God made us to recreate, man with women thats how its ment to b since day1.
we have free choice so sitting in a room with a man does not necessarily mean that she wants to have sex with him. and since when does these rules stop perverted action within ur community, it doesnt in fact it encourages it in a way, 'religeous' people make up excuses, if i molest this child it wont grow up to be 'evil/sinned' where did God say that??? why cant u think about the child who doesnt know what is happening and never fully recovers from the abuse they suffered due to religeon/extreamists? wen u ban things it makes ppl end up doing it religeon shouldnt be this way!! it should be full of love, life, happiness, not laws/rules, death and hatred. men think about sex more often then women anyways men should have the rules as they r more temped to sin.
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Bella, you are blaming the religion for the actions of a person.
The religion prohibits these actions,yes, those laws really are wiitten, look at what we read on Yom Kippur.
That those who should be outed are not is the point of another, more recent article by Mimiam Karp.
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For every thing in our life we need instructions as to how to do any particular task, whether it is as mundane as eating - which is taught by a parent to a child, or as important as making a plane or go to the space. Every product has an instruction book accompanying to tell us how to handle and operate it.
So how is it that for our social life we don't need any rules and regulation in order to live in harmony. I wonder why is it unbelievable for the majority of the population that God, the Creator, will leave his creatures without specific behavioral instructions? And why will we choose not to follow his instructions while we follow strictly his creatures' instruction about every mundane thing in our lives?
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With much respect. If I am celibate does that mean something has died in me? I am just confused. I doubt I will every marry again and I do not want to sin so celibacy would be the right choice, correct? Can we never be trusted? Anyone? It seems there is so much misunderstanding between genders even in this age. How do we provide growth for better understanding and communication without contact? I appreciate thoughts or suggestions on this.
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I appreciate that women wish to be treated fairly. They should be treated better than fairly. Rabbi Tzvi is not saying a man has no responsibility to control himself. Rabbi speaks about these Torah requirements as to show the benefit. If a woman recognizes her role in partnership, she can help the relationship reach a higher level. A hug will be better, a touch will be more passionate, sex will be greater and holier, everything about the relationship will reach a higher level of closeness to eachother and God. In nature, Rabbi describes a natural affection between man and woman. Due to practices in modernity, we have killed the natural desires and drives that we have, or caused them to fulfill themselves in grotesque manners since we cannot acheive them naturally anymore. If we followed the Torah, we could have a more natural sex life and eliminate alot of sexual confusion.
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maybe rabbi friedman should be honest and say that most of what the questioner is talking about is rabbinic law, and pretty "late" rabbinic law, at that...
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Anonymous tells Naomi, "when women objectify themselves, they should expect to be treated that way (they invite being hit on and stared at)."
INVITE??!!??
Men justify their lust, claiming the woman "was asking for it" and they even say this about a child.
Nobody "asks" to be raped, no matter his/her age or manner of dress.
That's saying that dressing in expensive suits is "asking" to be knocked on the head and robbed.
NO!
ANYONE who attacks anyone IS responsible for HIS OWN ACTIONS for his OWN DESIRES.
It's time to STOP BLAMING the VICTIMS.
In an era where bikinis are the norm, ANYTHING with sleeves, even short sleeves, is modest. Long pants are SAFER & MORE MODEST than skirts, which easily flip up to reveal all.
So STOP BLAMING li'l kids for men's ACTS.
If she doesn't say, "I want it" then you're w/o excuse to say she "asked for" it--esp. if she is under age and doesn't know what "it" is.
Or how agonizingly it hurts. ForEVER.
Stop justifying rape.
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Your comments tell a tale, we don't need the details.
Rape is a crime of violence that uses sex as a tool to terrorize the victim. The rapist's point is to degrade and brutalize the victim; he just uses sex as the method of reaching that dubious goal.
The modest mode of dress was not designed to prevent rape. Decent men don't rape in reaction to scanty dress, and rapists aren't less violent in reaction to modest women. This article, and ones like it, are not about rape; they are about daily, noncriminal interactions between people.
If the article had been about a person giving money anonymously rather than with his name attached as being more modest would you have thought to connect it to robbery or theft? Thinking of rape while reading this article uses that mindset, which we have already rejected.
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Seclusion of a man and a married woman is a prohibition from the Torah, and seclusion with an unmarried woman was forbidden by the Rabbis in the times of King David. Would you call that "late Rabbinic law"?
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I think the advice is very correct. . . then. If women would stay home and be mothers and wives only, this would be practical. In many areas of the world women are part of the work force. As workforce partners it is insulting to think that we have no more control over our actions than four legged animals. Advice would be more valuable if it applied to today's reality.
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The advice hasn't changed: Don't be a closed room with an opposite gender person who is not your spouse. If privacy is needed for work (for example, a job evaluation) you can be in a place you can be seen but not heard, in an office with a window, or far enough away to not be heard. if you need to be in an office leave the door open, even just a crack, so it is obvious you don't want privacy.
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Nicely said Rabbi Friedman! In this day when men act like women, and women act like men, you help us see reality. We extoll loss of male sexuality, and admire men who act like girls, or in the words of Arnold, "Girlie men". G-d forbid watch television, and you will see that the only time when a man is really politically correct, is when he acts "Gay". Women need in turn to be allowed to be feminine again. That does not mean strutting around like a street walker, but in the bedroom in front of their husband. A women does not need a socket wrench to feel fullfilled, instead she should try lighting Shabbat candles. And despite in vitro fertilization, and single parents, a husband and wife are not complete human beings without each other. Both the feminine and male waters are necessary to make our home a dwelling place for G-d. So smile, hug, kiss, and make passonate love all you husbands and wives, be modest with others, and your true sexuality will shine forth like the sun.
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Judaism is so afraid of contact between the sexes that it won't even use the correct WORD!
Gender is only a grammatical concept. In English there are three genders: Masculine, Feminine, and Neuter. In Hebrew, only two.
Male and Female are not GENDERS: they are SEXES. Humans do not have Genders. HaShem created the 2 SEXES. So have no fear! It's OK to use the correct word! S-E-X.
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Men & women should be able to be friends in spite of sexual feelings. Just as one fights the urge to make a move individually, they can agree to fight the urge together. Just as one has to constantly remind himself, both can remind each other, whenever it becomes necessary, of the vital importance of their agreed to limitations. Why should this be considered inappropriate if there is a chassidic understanding that 2 people together are two Godly souls against one animal soul?
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First, NOTHING is said about AGES. I am an old Grandma, and in Chabad, I can't even shake hands with a young man--- according to the reasoning given, even an old Grandma will make a young man have sexual feelings? Yikes! Ewwwww. I do NOT believe that. Oh my gosh. R U all for real?
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I really loved this answer from Rabbi Friedman! Specially the part where people pay for therapy to get a better relationship when it's all written in the Torah. And the funny part is that instead of people being more open minded in trying the Torah´s way, they tend to always think that the Torah is old and out of date but its because it´s old that it has all the secrets we need to any life situation we may encounter. Thank G-d we got such a precious gift and we should enjoy it!!!!!!!
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Their are many women that I would never consider having sex with and that will never change with these specific women, yet they are friends. Some I work with. If I listen to you, then I have to leave my office door open when I meet these women in private for specific business meetings. That is insame. Maybe this worked 2000 years ago but not in this year. G-d made us but the Torah was never updated to current times.
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Stephen,
Of course it works
It also protects men from false accusations.
Check previous commments:
15 Sep 07 Idealists vs modesty
17 Jan 09 It is my practice
29 Mar 09 to Sara
Written from my desk at work where I have employees of both genders. They all know private meetings are semiprivate. Knock and walk in is our standard proceedure for all doors at all times. For real privacy, we go outside, where we are totally visible..
Eliyahu
The edition of the dictionary I have (Merriam Webster paperback 1994) gives your definition first, and then for definition two refers the user to the first definition of sex. So in our context, the words are completely synonomous. I do not stand corrected.
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That which is forbidden is most tempting, as I assume most of us would agree. I find it far MORE sexually stimulating to be deprived of touch, when the imagination is left to wonder "what if?" Conversely, it whets the sexual appetite to be deprived of touch -- whets it, in fact, to a far greater degree than the actual sharing of physical contact. Rather than subjugating the sexual urge, the taboo associated with touch actually stimulates the imagination, the senses. So while no physical intimacy is shared, the mind is still committing a "sexual sin." This, in fact, can be a far more stimulating experience than the sexual act itself. The very converse of your theory is at play here. If indeed the Torah makes a clear distinction between thought and action, then perhaps no sin is being committed. That, however, is not my read. The mind, left to wonder what if, experiences a heightened pursuit of that which it cannot have. Deprivation only serves to enhance the sexual urge.
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I really enjoyed this explanation and insights.
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I really appreciate what the Judaism was teaching for the last 3000 yrs. But I could not understand why a therapist would advise the couple not to touch each other for two weeks!! I was born in Kalimpong, in the district of Darjeeling,W.B, India. We practice closing the door only when we are two intimate relatives or married couple especially when we share, comment or have some private talk.
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See, this is where having a firm law without distinctions goes really haywire. I'm sure many young men will also agree that shaking hands with a very old woman will NOT create a sexual tension or desire. Also, there is no distinction among non-relatives and relatives. Absolutely weird rule, in my opinion. Now, IF you apply it to people of the same age, PERHAPS you have logical ground on which to stand. But, then, you go back to where you have to have SEGREGATION on buses, in stores, in movie theaters, in schools, etc. SO, are you guys really and honestly saying SEGREGATION is helpful? For real? Wow. Am I in a time machine, or what?
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I certainly understand why adult women should dress modestly if they don't want unwelcome attention from men, but when the rule is extended to making little girls dress in long sleeves and long skirts even when the weather is hot, it's getting ridiculous. I don't expect my four year old grand-daughter to take responsibility for the behavior of perverts, but I do expect that her parents and teachers will keep their eyes open and make sure she is safe. I am also concerned about the illnesses that occur when children don't get enough sun on their skin, like rickets, which my father-in-law, a Yeshiva student from the age of seven suffered, thanks to being indoors all day when he should have had some out-door play time.
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What about a rationale for separating older women from younger men- grandmas and their grandsons- aunts and nephews- etc. These rules SAY NOTHING about making allowances for such differences of age, relationship in families, etc. I double dare any Rabbi to try to explain separating relatives and people of different ages with a sexual reference!!!!
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You are right, there is no allowance for age. A woman is a woman, and a man is a man. People don't lose their sexuality as they age. End of story.
As for teachers protecting children...try reading Georgia's comments from 29 Mar 09
And just to get the point further, read Anon's comment from 29 Jul 07, and the responses to that comment.
As for closeness between relatives: The rules will apply to any pair that could marry under halacha, regardless of the "ick factor" that we think is so normal. (And the other relationships are so basic that those prohabitions are the reading in synagogue for Yom Kippur!) Please remember that the way to be close is to talk to a person. Touch is not necessary in order to know a person.
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So, when introduced to a man, you don't shake hands? I take it that you don't see affection as being legitimate? See, I'm a warm, touchy-feely, huggable type of person and think that standoffish behavior is cold like ice. I guess it is all from one's perspective. There are some people I wouldn't touch or hug with a 10 foot pole, but I trust my own judgement on that. Also, what about a male doctor touching a female patient during an examination? Is everyone on this site saying that every doctor who does that has sexual feelings for a woman? YUCHHHHHH! How do they get around this issue in Israel, where everything is so strict on the religious laws? So, at what point, also, does a mother stop hugging her son?
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A mother is always allowed to hug her son.
Also, a male doctor may, in the course of his work, touch the woman he is treating, but whenever possible, a man should see a male doctor and a woman a female doctor.
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I have heard many Jewish women speak of how, as little girls, they were inappropriately touched, even violated, by male family members, & this seems to happen more in orthodox homes than otherwise.
So orthodox families should keep little girls covered & separate from men. ALL men, incl. family members, incl. elderly men.
Old ain't dead, as the saying goes.
I'm getting old myself, & when I see young men I notice when they are attractive. They are uninterested in me, perhaps, but who knows if we were hugging and then were alone together? You never know.
Everyone can hug and kiss with everyone as long as it's the same gender. Grandmotherly and sisterly and motherly and daughterly hugs aren't enough for her?
And surely the men would feel something if they hug a woman's female shape. The feeling invoked violates his private sexuality. And then he has to restrain himself. If he hugs women often, he numbs himself to become less responsive.
Not so good.
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Correct, I don't shake hands. And no, I don't live a segregated life. In my family owned company I work as the export manager, and I am the representative at trade shows. I have attended conventions in India, China, Europe, and also in the US. Job accomplished without shaking hands with men.
Affection or caring? Refraining from physical contact does not make you cold, a cold heart makes you cold. My way of showing caring is asking about someone's way of life, and really listening and learning from the answer. Other people find other ways.
Physical affection between adults is reserved for parents, spouse, siblings, and one's own children.
Medical personnel, and anyone in an emergency does whatever must be done to provide care.
It isn't that all touching is sexual, but this is a precaution. We don't put a safety fence right at the edge of the cliff, it is a few yards away.
Look at the comments from 29 and 30 July 09
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of hugs and kisses? The friendly hug does NOT involve body touching. Only shoulders up. The friendly kiss is on the cheek (or in France in and Italy, both cheeks), not the mouth. Sometimes, when you make such a big deal about sex regarding even the tiniest gesture as a handshake, then actually sex becomes A BIG deal, and it is harder for men to even LOOK at a woman without wanting sex. I have heard that it is normal behavior for a man to have an erection every 2 minutes, but NOT all men go and grab a girl, woman or grandma to DO anything about it. The actual ONLY rationale for what Orthodox and Chabad do is TRADITION. Any other reasoning falls short of logic or reality. The reason Orthodox men have more trouble with this is because of this separation, which you admit causes MORE thoughts about the sex act, not less. There is more left to the imagination. So the term has evolved of the Yiddishe "Alta Cocker" (dirty old men) among the young Jewish girls.
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Read the comments from late July 2007. I am begining to feel you are ignoring all the previous comments. I am also feeling that you are looking at this with a preset opinion. I think you should pay attention to the comments from Tarek and Leah. And keep in mind that Tarek is a common Arabic/Muslim name for a male.
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Your comments may work for you, but they do not work for me. I live in Mexico and it is a custom that when you meet a female friend you kiss her on her on her face and not her lips. Not to do so would be an insult.
I am sure that G'd never intended that I insult anyone.
The Torah law may have worked thousands of years ago but it needs be brought up to date.
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Time and time again it is proven that the 'ancient' Torah law transcends time and outsmarts any other system. After all, our creator knows us [and generations] best!
The holy Malbim, may his memory be a blessing, says (in the Hagada) that *we* the children/followers of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are the 'modern enlightened ones'. After all, the world was mired in immorality until the Patriachs revealed the light of G-d and morality to the world. The sickening policies in today's world are simply a throwback to the old pre-patriachs system!
--
An old Rabbi once visited a friend, and while immersed in study, the host prepared a tea and sent it to him with his 9 yr old daughter. As the Rabbi noticed her entering the open doorway [blocking his exit], he let out a cry "YICHUD!" and jumped out the 2nd story window!
He was of course not afraid of falling for sex! He simply respected the Torah, the word of G-d, (ALL of the mitzvot) regardless of the reason behind it, with great awe and fervor.
Hope this helps..
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Natan. In my opinion, the story you gave of a Rabbi jumping out of a window because he RESPECTED the Torah PROVES that some people take this much too far. I am sure the Torah is against suicide. I heard another rabbi say how wonderful it was that some Jews refused to eat non Kosher food and chose to die of starvation instead. That takes following the laws MUCH too far, in my estimation. When SUICIDE is chosen in order to keep to a lesser law, then someone has a serious mental problem and does not know G'd's grace and understanding and ability to know the heart rather than the outward show of holiness. Just my opinion. You guys telling me what is the "correct" way to worship G-d does not make it true, and does not make you closer to G-d than I am, and does not ensure you a closer place to G-d in Heaven than mine. By saying you follow the laws and that is the ONLY way to be Jewish, then you don't understand G-d's MEANING behind the words. Just my opinion. You will do what you will do.
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This so called law is outdated and needs to be updated.
Guess what, God made me and he gave me a brain with the ability to think. There is no question in my mind that he knew what he was doing. If he didn’t want me to use my brain and am sure he would have informed me.
Not everything in this world relates to sex. Having a door open in a private office during a private conversation with the opposite sex consequently, amounts to an act of insanity.
To the uptight people that think this law has merit really need to visit their psychologist for help!
Many corporations meet in hotels because one or more of the parties is from out of town. In this case, I would agree.
Like I said in Mexico as in all Latin counties, it is common for a man to greet a lady with a kiss on her cheek. This does not mean you are headed to a bedroom. It does not mean you are going to have sex and it does not mean that an affair will take place.
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Hi Karen;
Indeed some will never change....Um... I did! I saw it your way less than 10 years ago...
Anyhow Karen, when I wrote the story, I knew that I was writing something controversial and that many won't come close to grasping the level of service to G-D that this Rabbi obtained. (That is why I offered an explanation.)
Karen, if you observe Shabbat, than you should know the spiritual feeling of Love to G_D is above and beyond *any* earthly feelings. Likewise, the love to G_D a true holy Rabbi experiences is beyond what you and I can fathom. (You can't explain plain Love to someone that never experienced it either.) So, how can we gauge his reactions to *any* mitzvah? Do we know what profound effect his courage and valor had on all his followers? (NOT Twitter followers<g>!)
----
re suicide: How do you view the firemen (on 911) running up the stairs in WTC to save others? Heroes or idiots? Can one say that G_D commands anyone to do so? How far would you go to save a loved one?
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1. It seems like you either didn't read or failed to grasp the various points of my post, especially the point made by the Rabbi Malbim of blessed memory.
2. G_d gave you a brain AND the ability to choose your path in life. (As well as the ability to hit the reset button and start fresh.) He also gave you a holy Torah to guide you how to use your brain.
3a. The door need NOT be wide open, or open at all. As long as it is not locked and anyone can walk in on you. That surely allows you to keep your talk private, no?
3b. True, some people can have a private conversation, and nothing else. But.. many cannot! Let's not kid ourselves. did you ever research how many sex acts take place (or begin) in the aforementioned setting? Ask a therapist!
4. Mexican ladies.. I have quite a few friends in Mexico City. They never kissed a (another) lady...and never had a problem. In the states, many have a Mexican cleaning (or other employed) lady, and she never gets a kiss, and life is just fine.
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My belief is moral relativism. Orthodox & Chabad belief is called moral absolutism. Those who believe in moral absolutism deny that it is cultural norm and custom that define morality. In fact, they believe in the "divine command theory" in which it is G-d who created the laws. So, morality has different meanings.Telling what the Torah says is descriptive ethics, and "moral realism". I am a moral skeptic in the field of normative ethics. I believe that it is moral to bend rules and laws on an individual basis. I also believe in a G-d who is changing and not unchanging, which would be different from Orthodox and Chabad beliefs. We both have a right to post, correct?
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Hi, Bonnie, Torah was given to all of us, and we are to obey or disobey... choose life or death, but choose life, in order that you may keep alive... you and your offspring.
I am not Jewish, but it is the foundation of all that I believe, being Christian.
All of these laws I must try my best to excercise in my life. I must "choose life" (through my teachings) so my family can keep alive as they learn from my example and begin to make the truth their own.
I bought my 3rd "Fiddler on the roof" with Chaim Topol, and it cuts me to see his third daughter (Chava) "choose death" when she
kept a secret to herself and carried on with the "Nice Russian boy," Fredkya. (It was all physical, was it not?)
How did it start? She chose to accept a small gift (book) and violate her Father's rules (from Torah).
This was innocent, was it not, but Tevya knew it meant the death of his daughter... she chose death over life!
How very, very sad! My 1st born did too.
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What happened with your first born?
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Dear Karen;
Why not light Shabbat candles (before sundown) tonite, and experience your doubts melting away...
Shabbat Shalom!
natan
ps. I am a chassid of Satmar, but love the work Chabad is doing
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With the conditions that the door be shut and not be l locked I can live with.
As far as your comment about your Mexican not kissing is out of the norm for Mexico and that I do not agree with your comments.
However I do respect your comments.
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All Jewish practices have their simple reasons as well as deeper, more spiritual explanations.
One obvious benefit of separate seating in a synagogue is that it helps ensure that the main focus is on the prayers and not on the opposite gender. There is no question that we don't act the same in a mixed crowd as we do in a same-gender one. There is nothing wrong with that. It is good and healthy that we are attracted to each other, but during prayers we shouldn't be trying to impress anyone other than G-d.
In addition to that, a synagogue should be a welcoming and inclusive place. No one should feel left out. Many single people feel extremely uncomfortable at a function or event at which everyone seems to be with a partner except them. No one should ever feel this way at a synagogue. When men and women sit separately, there is no discrimination between singles and couples. (There will always be a chance for singles to mingle afterwards at the Kiddush!)
Bib.A.Moss.
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There is NOTHING beautiful or loving about castigating your grown children if and when they make choices you don't like. Calling it "choosing death" is really harsh. Fiddler on the Roof is an example of how a father can cause GREAT emotional harm to a daughter by turning his back on her when she needs him the most. Better to say, "I don't agree with you, I believe you are choosing the wrong way of life. But, I will always love you. If and when you need me, I will be here. Yes, my heart is breaking, but I will pray for you often. You will always be my daughter. Be safe, my Darling." See how much better it is to attract bees with honey rather than excrement. G-d is also merciful and good, you have to remember. It is also G-D who will judge a person's heart and actions, not you. Fiddler on the Roof gave Judaism a BAD name in my opinion. Unfortunately, that is all too common a practice, to cut off your loved ones in a HARSH and punitive manner.
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Natan, do you HONESTLY believe that the firemen who tried to SAVE PEOPLE'S LIVES on 911 are the SAME as the rabbi who jumps out a window because of non-kosher food, or inability to fulfill one of the 613 commandments or a commandment which had been made by a scholar or sage of old? Can you honestly say they are the same? You really think that by killing yourself (which is totally against the Torah), you are saving someone ELSE'S life? And that if you SIT NEXT TO A PERSON of the opposite gender, you are choosing death? OMG. Really? For real?
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I am so used to doing business with Canadians, Mexicans and Central and South Americans it doesn't even feel foreign to me any more. I have never had anyone try to kiss me, and as our field is a technical one, most of my contacts are men. Handshaking sometimes does take an explaination, but I manage. The only hard part for me is the standard talking distance in our two cultures! (Americans like much more space than most other cultures.)
And it is a boatload of husband's experience that leads me to say these laws can protect a person (usually male) from a false accusation. These laws do not need updating at all.
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Karen;
It is obvious that you are trying to twist my words, nevertheless I will [again] attempt to explain. (But first, did you lite Shabbat candles?<g>)
1. Courageous people give their life out of love for others. (Unlike terrorists that do it out of hate, like crooks that would die just to kill a cop.) Like a mother saving the life of her child via sacrificing her own, or a fireman, or a true lover, love and a noble cause is their motive.
(By the way, in the Hebrew book "Those that did not succumb" the author, who lived thru various nazi concentration camps, expresses admiration towards Hassidim. When the nazi beasts split a couple taking one to death, it was the *hassidic* spouse that would plead with the beast to take him/her and let the spouse live.)
continued...
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continued...
Like I said, do the fireman/mother/lover HAVE to do it? Does the Torah demand it? No. But if love is the true motive, it is a positive act, and the Torah allows it. A Rabbi giving his life out of love of G_D and his people, is a hero, even if he is not required to go that far. But there is much more to it. By doing so, he is not saving 1 or 2 or 10 lives, he is preserving the Jewish identity for everyone witnessing it AND preserving generations! (Now, for someone that eg intermarriage means 'nothing' cannot possibly fathom an understanding of such lofty behaviour. And no point to argue. It's like trying to explain to a terrorist the importance and beauty of the gift of life.)
Sept 1939: (From a survivor. Either Warsaw or Crackow, I don't remember.) They gather thousands of Jews to a public place for their vile, sadistic, theatrics. This was going to be their first show, so they really wanted to break everyone. They put the holy Torah scroll center stage.
continued...
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continued...
They seek out the lowest of the low from amongst the Jews. Two brothers, known crooks, from Jail. They had never stepped into a synagogue in their adult life. They give these two brothers an ultimatum. 1:Desecrate (G_D forbid) the Torah and get out of jail scott free; 2:Or else... But thy underestimated the Jewish soul. The two brothers screamed "We may be crooks, but we are Jews! NO! WE HOUNOUR the Holy Torah! The confused and angry nazis begged and threatened a few times (this was 1939), but these holy brothers again shouted "No! We are Jews!" They were shot on the spot. It is impossible (for us, sitting on our couches,) to gauge the effect this holy act had on the thousands of Jews. Those who survived FIVE YEARS of concentration camps *and remained religeous in America*, attributed the strength to do so, because they witnessed the two Jewish crooks choosing to die for the preservance of the holiness of G_D's Torah.
How many lives/generations did they save? They HAD to?
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2. Karen, you obviously elected to sidestep the important point I mentioned earlier, made by the Rabbi Malbim of blessed memory. Basically, the way before Torah IS the old way. Torah enlightened us and shed light into an immoral barbaric civilization. Any civilized society today, owe their morals (if any) to the Torah and to the 'Sages of old' who taught us the new modern moral way of living.
2b. Besides, Do you really think you are smarter than Maimonides (or any other Sage)?
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Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. If you had spent time in Mexico like you claim you would know that your statement is without merit.
Maybe you were just a vistor and if so then I would agree with you. Vistors are treated different. In the Latin Countries like Mexico friends are always greet with a kiss from the other sex. Not to do so is a MAJOR INSULT. This has nothing to do with sex or sexual activity.
When you spend a year or more in Mexico then you will understand. Like I said, this law is OUTDATED.
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Answer: yes. And I think your comments are way out on the fringe of lunacy. I have heard these stories before and the people who spout them actually believe it, and think they are closer to G-d than am I. There will always be, on this earth, Jews who take legalism to the extreme as well as Jews who are atheists, and all point in between. I'm more to the left of middle, and you are way, way, way, way to the right on the continuum line. We are VERY different, Natan. And yes, I light candles and sing the blessing, as did my Orthodox Bubbe. Face it. We are different. We are, however, both Jewish. Live with that fact.
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Karen,
Sorry if I hit a raw nerve somewhere, but then; truth hurts...
I wrote four lengthy articulate comments, and the only thing you respond with is that you consider yourself smarter than Maimonides!? (And some name bashing... as liberals do when losing a debate. [Thank you, Rush Limbaugh!]) I'll grant you benefit of the doubt that you never researched Maimonides' achievements.
The holy Rabbi Kedushat Zion of Bobov zt"l Hy"d demanded from his followers to take the 'middle' path. Once he was questioned, how is it that the reformed Rabbi also claims to represent the 'middle'. He replied "it depends on your endpoints. The reformed Rabbi's extreme right, doesn't even exist on my scale at all." Karen, I suspect that your 'middle' is way to the left of a simple observant Jew's 'left'. (Now, don't retort with the flip side.)
I think your Orthodox Bubbe is praying for you up there, causing you some turmoil. Please Karen, don't be one of those that never change..
Enough said.
natan
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I never claimed to have lived in Mexico. I have always been a visitor, so part of your point may be valid. However, avoiding a kiss in Mexico/SA is no harder or more insulting than avoiding shaking hands in America.
However the overall theme (implied or stated) is that avoiding this contact is not possible. You say this even though you have someone saying "Yes it is, I do." (and so do all the Chabad emissaries, who do live there.) You just keep saying it isn't possible. Don't bother with the facts your mind is made up? I don't want to believe you mean that. I can understand you saying you can't or aren't ready. It is quite another for you to say that if you can't no one can. Do you realize where you are claiming to be if you say that?
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I'm happy to live with you being Jewish and I rejoice that you have your place in G-d's world, and that you are trying to find that place.
I don't look to judge other people. Nor do I think about if those around me are closer to G-d than I am. I'm busy trying to be closer today than I was yesterday. I'm just not looking at or judging anyone else that closely. You should accept that while I care about you, I don't judge you.
I manage to live in this modern world as an observant Jew. Can't do both just isn't valid. After the comments previously said, that is defense, not criticism.
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I understand. Thank you for explaining. Good luck in your quest. G-d knows your heart and motives, and if this is your choice, then may G-d help you to live in the way you have chosen. Others should respect that.
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Sarah, Now that that it is clear that you were nothing more than a vistor consequently, it is impossible for you to comment on what you have no knowledge of.
I read your previous comments "It also protects men from false accusations" this comment is also preposterous and ludicrous. Having a conversation in private with a door close such as a business meeting with a person of the opposite sex makes a man guilty of nothing.
If you believe that it does make you guilty then you really needs to visit your psychologist for immediate help.
As stated this law is outdated in these times and should not be enforced.
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Did you notice I said FALSE accusations? In the case I write about the accusations were made by someone willing to commit (among other crimes) perjury. The victim's reputation is destroyed, in a public forum. And my faith in the secular courts is totally destroyed. If the man had been unwilling to meet in an unlocked & closed room the legal situation would have been better. He is more careful now, but it is locking the door after the theft has occurred. America is a most litigious society, employers beware!
Emissaries are not visitors; they live their full lives in the place they go to serve. There are currently three listed in Mexico, and easily over 25 couples throughout C.& S Amer. Each of the (at least) fifty adults involved at those centers can tell you they live this way, each in their city. It is possible!
As for enforcement - only G-d judges and he will include extenuating circumstances, but why take advangae of that? I'd rather have the "extra" mitzvot!
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This is a very disrespectful practice in America. The place where it would be the easiest to maintain the practice of not shaking hands would be the Asian countries, where they bow instead of shaking hands. On second thought, instead of saying "I don't shake hands" to a business person, it would be more polite to say, "I prefer to bow, like in the Asian countries, please." That way, you won't be insulting a non-Asian business person. EVERYONE accepts bowing as an alternative to shaking hands. They may think you are a little strange, but will not think you are being rude and impolite. How about that idea for an alternative, Sarah?
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Stephen, you have the right to believe this rule is very outdated. Sarah, you have the right to site your reasons why the rule is helpful and not harmful. So, therefore, Stephen, you can shake hands with women, and Sarah, you should not shake hands with men. Does that solve the problem? I still want to know, Sarah, what you think of my suggestion to say you would RATHER bow in a greeting rather than shake hands instead of saying your religion does not let you touch a man.
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First of all your statement is clearly ambiguous at best and most importantly suggest that a man would be held to an outrageous finding based solely upon an outdated standard set some 5000 years ago.
Of course anyone can commit a crime such as perjury however we do not set our Jewish faith, or its standards based upon what a criminal may or may not do.
We use the logic that Gd gave to us. We dont hurt others and we respect one another.
Why dont you wear a chastity belt and then you will never have to be in fear that a man will be falsely accused of some wrong doing that in fact never took place.
To live in fear is not and has never been Gd wishes.
Just because one man commits a wrong does not mean that every man will commit the same wrong. Nor does it mean because one man did something wrong every other man should be held to a higher standard based upon the wrongdoing of another.
To hold a man to that insane standard is clearly wrong.
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It isn't the woman who has fear. It is the man who has fear that a woman will lie, and claim something happened, when nothing untoward occurred. This is earthly law we are talking about. In America a woman can say:
He was my boss/employer
He made an advance.
It was unwelcome.
She bought flowers, had them delivered with no card. She said she knew they were from him, and she sued for harassment. To shore up that case, she went to the police claiming an unwelcome touch. The police and prosecutor believed her. So did the judge. No one ever even gave him a chance to show the receipt for the flowers, showing she bought them. He never had a chance to present any defense. I'm not saying it is right. I am saying that is the way it is.
And as employers we live in fear that another employee will lie, and bring another case.
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Usually I try to have something (one of our products, or a demo piece) in my hands, so shaking is not possible. Or I just say that physical contact is avoided. As my mode of dress is not quite what everyone else is wearing, I am identifiable as a minority. (And the kipa on Friend Husband's head helps.)
Oddly, it is harder in Asia. They don't recognize that we are different. They don't know that the kipa on FH's head means something, and they don't get the subtleties of my modest dress.
Even FH ends up doing an odd shake and bow combination. He bows (badly) to accommodate them, and they shake hands (tentatively) to accommodate him! But to say anything is to tackle the language and cultural barrier. Just bowing, and having something in my hands, takes me through a lot. (I am grateful that we sell a THING so I can have it in my hands.)
And if it goes well they want to take you to dinner.... :-)
I never said it is easy, I said it is possible.
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I very much admire your commitment to your belief system. You sound like a really nice person, and I'm very honored to read your opinions! The answer to the question above is supposed to be an answer to "Why", and not what we believe to be logical. We are also incorrect in trying to justify our own levels of adherence to this rule. The question is why does the Torah say this, My only real answer is, "I don't know". I assume that a long time ago, when there were no harassment laws and when women were the property of men, and it was assumed men were all horn dogs out for one thing from a woman, this law made very much sense. Because some people do not want or believe in adjusting rules to changing eras or places, they keep the same old laws verbatim just like as if culture had never, ever changed over the past thousands of years. Again, people have the right to their beliefs. I have stated mine. I hope Natan has cooled down in his anger and accusatory remarks. I'm not a terrorist.
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nothing wrong with the word "restricive" -- it implies "protective" too!!
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His daughter when she reaches puberty, the daughter (unless it is explained with kindness) perceives that something is wrong with her, that her growth is dirty, that her changing body means her dad no longer loves her any more. Take a guess what happens when a girl is of that impression? It's not surprising. She will turn to boys and s-x for love. It's a very, very common occurrence, but a very,very HUSHED UP thing. It happened to MANY, MANY of my friends in Jr. High and high school.
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I was in the room, as a young girl, hearing my male cousins talking about having s-x. They decided that Jewish girls were off limits, because they couldn't touch them. So, they were going to go to the Gentile girls. They actually split the girls into "Kosher" and "Non-Kosher". The funny thing is, because I was also friends with gentiles, I overheard the gentile boys saying they would NEVER "do it with a Christian/Catholic girl, but Jewish girls were fair game". Teenage boys seem to have a problem, don't they? I think on the Jewish boys' parts, it is BECAUSE OF this requirement to stay away from women and not touch them. So, they just stay away from the JEWISH females.
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The answer is quite simple. SEX education.
The key is to talk to your children in great detail on this subject. Hold nothing back.
The same is for the discussion on drugs.
There is no exception to this rule.
You as a parent should know when it is the right time to engage in these conversations with your child. It makes no difference if the child is a girl or a boy and you have a duty to engage in these conversations,
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I have found that this topic is TABOO among many Orthodox families.
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I am recently finding myself and my sexuality also. I am 17 and being in public high school, and just discovering my Jewish roots, makes things kind of difficult. I am dying to convert but am not sure if I want to go orthadox or just be refined...
Anyways, I am not a virgin. For a while, I was obsessed with sex, and couldn't stop thinking about it. It got really bad, and I did some stupid things.
Now, I have realized the errors of my ways, and am now working hard to be pure again. I have a guy that I like, and he has since kissed me once, held my hand, and kissed me on the cheek, but I refuse to let him get any further than that (and he does not want to). I enjoy that we are together in this way, but this article makes me see that we could even not touch and still be happy together! Our relationship is already much deeper than ones I have had in the past, which is what I have been longing for, as has he. Though we aren't exactly dying to get married right now, since we are so young.
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I am probably not your kind of Jewish, but I am Jewish, and I agree completely with the teaching of not being in any form of seclusion with a person of the opposite sex who is not one's husband or first-degree relative; I would not feel safe from sexual aggression without this rule, So thank you for your discourse on it.
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It is incredibly not just when you are married and your spouse does not show you affection but then turns around outside the home...and off to work he goes sharing talking laughing and in very close contact with females and in very very small quarters with the doors closed...shoulders and arms brushing each others..what else...it hurts when I (his wife)gets the cold shoulder but he shares this contact with the opposite sex outside our marriage! Am I asking too much?...According to the Torah...No I am not!
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I can understand how it would hurt you in those conditions. The problem is not with this nonsense law, it is a problem in your marriage between you and your husband.
It is time for you to have a one on one conversation with your husband about this problem. Tell him how you feel and what you expect from him.
I hope you are able to work out this problem and enjoy a wonderful life with each other.
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A man I worked for asked a scantily clad woman into his office. He fired her and she decided to tear her dress and claim attempted rape. There were no windows and the door was closed. He served 5 years after which she admitted she lied. Keep the door open.
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Let me understand this. What you are saying is a women committed several crimes, i.e., a false police report, perjury of a crime that never took place resulting in a sentence of 5 years.
If this is true, what difference under these circumstances would it have been if the door was open or closed?
This example is nothing more than a criminal offense. Criminal don’t care if the door is open or closed.
Relating to this ARTICLE consequently, the one lady that I engaged in a disputed dialog with was under the same belief you are. However, she finally admitted she received the cold shoulder from her husband after he was in close contact with other unmarried ladies. This I can understand and I also understand her hurt feelings.
But this has no relationship to having a door open or closed. If her husband or if the lady wanted sex the issue of a closed or open door in the end would have made no difference.
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If everything is public, if there are no meetings behind closed doors, there can be no false claim because there are witnesses who can testify that the claimed incident did not occur. Check my comments from 15 April 2010.
The criminal does care that there is no private area. A false claim, framing an innocent person, is much more difficult to press. We are talking about criminals. They don't care about anything except being able to make a lie sound like the truth.. False police reports, perjury, ethics in general are not something these women find problematic..
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That is a room with a closed door.
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Since our minds are like babes and we will never know it all, G+d's omniscience serves to protect us and albeit seems restrictive. In fact ironically Torah provides freedom from any unexpected consequences which our minds can't forsee. Torah opens our closed minds. I.e. without Torah our minds remain spiritually dead & unwise.
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According to many Halachic authorities, an elevator is not a Yichud problem as the ride lasts only a brief moment, and, at any time, the elevator can stop with someone else entering.
(Some are careful and try to even avoid this.)
More problematic would be elevators in very tall buildings that go directly to the top stories without stopping, taking a good deal of time to get up.
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An elevator has a closed, but not locked door. The people in the elevator have the expectation that the door will open at any moment. A situation which may cause difficulties would be if the elevator failed to open, for example, during a badly timed blackout.
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I understand the reasoning behind the article and it does make a lot of sense. However, I'm not sure how plausible it is in today's world. Like psychologists, doctors... - many of those appointments involve a man and woman in the same room and are not sexual in nature. Although the philosophy behind it is quite clever, it seems as if its costs outweigh its benefits. in terms of business and relationships etc
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Our Parent knew our mistakes before He Created us ,thus we were given a Holy manual ( Torah ) with restrictive instructions to follow and obey; to survive.
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This may be a piece of wisdom, rather than law. In general, it is not wise for a lone man and woman to be in a room with a closed door for a long period of time. I can think of many instances where this would be so, particularly in business. I remember when called into the principal's office as a teacher, the door was OPEN except when he wanted to chastise me or say something unlawful which he didn't want anyone to hear (no witnesses). So, I learned if he closed the door behind us, it meant he was up to no good. On the other hand, in a family situation, I see no harm in general. I did have an uncle, however, who tried to grab and kiss me when my parents weren't home and I was alone. I stomped on his foot and ran away, but learned not to EVER be alone in a room with him out of my own self protection. As with any rule or law, I can see it being taken, in my estimation, too far. However, as I said, it is generally wise, and I can see its merits.
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that a married couple's relationship is deeper and longer-lasting if husband and wife do occasionally touch in public. It makes each one feel closer and more loved by the other to know that the other cares enough about him/her to hold hands or hug even when others are around. It makes them feel as if their relationshiip is more important than a societal taboo. It makes them feel as if the other wants the whole world to know that they belong to each other--as if each is proud to claim the other as his/her mate, instead of acting as if they were ashamed to be linked to the other in the minds of others.
If you want to convince us, gather the statistics among frum Jews and prove that it doesn't apply to us. Otherwise, you are setting us up to have disappointing relationships with our spouses. .
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Is not, I think, a law in Judaism, is it? If so, hmm. For the couple, this is wonderful. For the couple's children, this is wonderful Signs of affection are wonderful. But, for the onlookers, what? You never know how it will affect them. It doesn't bother me now. I think it's cute, actually and it warms my heart to see happily married couples showing affection. However, right after my horrid divorce, when I was starkly and utterly alone, it HURT to the bone to see a couple kissing and hugging in public. I wanted to yell to them that they were being selfish, didn't they know how much seeing that hurt me? However, in the long run, that pain would have been there with or without seeing other people showing their love for each other. So, what do I think? I don't know. Right now, I'd say it's ok, why not? Then, however, I'd have said I felt anger, felt like hurting them for hurting me with the reminder of what I will never again have in my life. I didn't, but I really felt anger.
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Never resist nor crtiicise Torah's restrictions .Just the same way a dieter resists candy-- never even open the box. Suppose , you don't nibble on the first bite of candy , you can't take the second and the third. Torah is similar too , if you don't open the first page to study ,how will you know the next ,or the difference between restrictive and its consequences ? Torah is like a light that burns brighter every time it's consumed. Taking the first step is the most awkward and arduous, seemingly restrictive until you suddenly transform and plunge into Her holy majestic beauty which is an oasis of bliss , joy and pleasure.It brings heavenly wisdom , knowledge ,hope and opens the mind to a new dimension with new divine values and blessings . G-d pleasing ! Life is more wholly and complete ,with us more righteous ; all things with G-d - become more possible. NB! " Less is more " (healthy to diet ) ,but so is restrictive also more ... unconceivably much much more of more infinity .
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That the writer is stating the Torah IS restrictive. Why is the Torah the Torah? Because. Why so restrictive? Because. TRADITION. That's all. No reason or rationale. Period. Also, in the beginning of civilization, there were NO RULES about who can have sex with whom. Jews began these rules about incest, etc. In those days, it wasn't the same as now. In fact, if a man and woman touched or were found in a room together with the door closed, they might have been considered MARRIED by doing that. Now, it's just a traditional habit. It doesn't mean the same as it did back then. But, we do it? Why? Because that's how it's been done for years and years past. That is also why there were splits from Orthodoxy into Reform, etc. So it is that some Jews follow the laws in a strict manner, and some use the laws as HISTORY for a background of the current legal rules or laws of today in whichever nation we live.
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Generally we avoid contact between married people in public because the absence of contact would then give a clue as to the wife being a nidah. That would not be anyone's business but the couple's. Also, while we do rejoice in the physical side of our marriages, we try to keep that as private as possible. Nonphysical ways of communicating the primary method of sending information/messages within the relationship.
Barbara,
Who did the study? When? Has it been verified? Usually these studies just come up with the fact that Orth. marriages suit both partners very well, with high levels of contentment/happiness.
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AFTER the word "constrictive" in the question, this would be a more inclusive question, as there are MANY restrictive and constrictive laws. The fact we have lightened up on SOME and not on others is amazing to me. For example, why did we lighten up the restriction on men sitting on the same chairs as women? Etc. This is a more interesting question. My belief is that ANYthing having to do with sex and keeping women's roles definitely defined will STAY, and anything which confines men will BE LIGHTENED UP on.
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Its more our finite mindsets that restrict us ; we are restrictive which makes Torah and all else seem restrictive.Try and see it from above and then it will clear like blue skies after a storm.Torah sets us free ,free from our restictions and its unknown & known consequences.
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Mark, being alone in a room with a door closed doesn't cause HIV. That is ridiculous. Abacus, you are correct in the instances you cite. Doctors and patients need to have the door closed, although with gynecological exams, a nurse is brought in to protect a male doctor from women who may lie to get $ in a lawsuit. With psychologists, it is necessary to close the door so the patient can have privacy. I believe the rule here is that SAVING A LIFE takes precedence over any Torah command or restriction. That includes doctors. Sometimes, in business, it is justified, as an example when a SECRET business move is being made and they want to have no CHANCE of having corporate spies. Other than that, there's no reason for a closed door. On the other hand, there is no reason for a man to jump out of a window & commit suicide rather than be in a room with a woman if the door gets closed. I heard that in a story at Chabad one Sabbath. I don't think that was a great example of faith.
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To which Mark do u refer and if me to which text so that i may put back in context for u and all , too ? Tx beloved.
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I don't believe the man in the story you refer to risked his life. I believe the window was low enough that he was in no major physical danger. He did, however, say "goodbye" to his dignity. While we like to be dignifed, cool, calm, and collected, we have to sacrifice our egos for the sake of Torah.
The laws of yichud would have permitted this man time to leave the room in a more dignifed manner, but he was being stringent, and left in the fastest method possible- without regard for his dignity.
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I still say, however, this was NOT the best example of "faith" or following Torah. To me, it exemplified how ridiculous are some of the prohibitions. I think other stories would benefit us much better. I'm sure someone creative could come up with a more reasonable scenario.
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Why hasn't anyone talked about homeosexuality? Does it not exist within jewish culture? Is ignoring it the best way to deal with it? Is there sexuality only beteween man and woman?
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Please check this article:
Do Homosexuals Fit into the Jewish Community?
By Bronya Shaffer
Question:
According to Jewish law, how should a person react to homosexual feelings? Do homosexuals fit into the Jewish community?
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A discussion of Jewish sexuality and intimacy does not include homosexual relationships, as they are forbidden, along with the rest of the negative commandments. In other words, it's normal to experience a desire for any one of the negative commandments, at the same time, the Torah instructs us to grapple with the feeling and not grant it expression. The fact that we are being asked to do such things means that we absolutely have the power and ability to accomplish it.
By commanding a Jew to overcome this inclination the Torah gives the person that believes in G-d and the Torah the spiritual power to overcome this tendency. He can thereby obtain positive results and build a life according to Torah and mitzvot.
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question is the reasoning behind the answer for this blog. You see, if the reason for men and women being separated is purely a sexual reason, then shouldn't we also have a separate section for those people who are attracted sexually to people of the same gender? If you think about it, putting a man with homosexual tendencies or ideations grouped into a tightly knit group of other men, is actually tempting to him to have sexual thoughts. The same with putting a lesbian into the group with other women.
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"You are right, there is no allowance for age. A woman is a woman, and a man is a man. People don't lose their sexuality as they age. End of story." What a terrible opinion you must have of men of all ages. Not all men are horndogs, panting after every female whether in heat or too old for heat. What a horrible way to describe men! Yuck! The actual answer by Rabbi Freeman is not an answer at all, but a rationale, an apology, a defense. There is no answer to why the laws exist at all, except to say they do. To really know the WHY of Torah law, we will have to wait until Moshiach comes and ask him. For now, all Jews are free to follow or not follow the laws without fear of being struck down by lightening. We are still Jews. Still loved by Hashem.
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When I wrote that I had in mind the young among us who mistakenly think that the sexual side of life ends at 40! (or 50, or some other preset age)
No, I don't mean that each and every man is, as you put it, a horndog, at any age, nor do I have the equivalent opinion of women. I did mean that there is no upper age limit. Sex among humans isn't just for having children, it is also a way to express the feelings we have for each other. Those feelings are precious, not for public display, and do not stop based on age.
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When you are, you will understand my sayings. You may even, at some point, welcome a helping hand to get into a car or go across a street. If you fall down, you may welcome a strong man who can pick you up if your husband is not around for some reason.
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There is an old woman who has trouble getting up out of a chair because of severe arthritis, and the men around her see she is in horrid pain and agony. They watch while she struggles, over 10 minutes, to get up, and don't help her because of the requirement not to touch. What is your take on that scenario? It is true.
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Joyce, are you sure that is the reason? The scenario you are describing sounds quite strange and bizarre. I would say that the issue should be taken up with the rabbi, who should explain to the men that in such an instance we are certainly obliged to help the lady. If this is story is true, it is a good example of what the Talmud calls a "chasid shoteh"—foolish piety.
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To me at one of the celebration events in Riverside. I will mention this to the Rabbi. I was too shocked to even talk to him about it. But, thanks for telling me to do so. You know, I am not super observant, but something in my heart said that the rule for healing and saving a life would be more important in that instant should have been realized. Even I know that, which is saying a lot. Rabbi Tzvi, thank, you THANK you for confirming my belief in the goodness of G-d. I really didn't think that taking the letter of the law that far, to the point of harm for a woman, was correct. Thanks again, Rabbi. I so welcome your explanations. See, now I have to tell the people to whom I complained, who were NOT Jewish, that I was wrong, and it wasn't the law that was at fault. Whoops.
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