 | If insisting that you will only date Jews makes you racist, does insisting that you will only date men make you sexist?
222 Comments Posted
I suspect that the question of the Jewish birthright only borders on racism if one possesses such a birthright by has no regard for the Jewish covenant itself. What's the point of being a Jew from birth and not having a relationship with G-d and Torah and Israel and living in accord with all that? Such a distinction then does tend to smack of racism; but the young lady in this instance is only discriminating because she obviously cares very deeply about her covenant and it's requirements, and that discrimination is not bad. I can find no fault in your response at all, Rabbi Moss.
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The co-worker was out of line to call her racist for wanting a Jewish husband! Sounds like the guy was hoping to get a date with this woman, and his racist accusation was sour grapes! Obviously, she's Jewish and a Jewish husband is most likely to have the same values. I hear plenty of Christians say their spouse has to be Christian. Obviously, many people want a spouse with the same values. Nothing racist about it.
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Rabbi Moss: Thank you for a heartening answer. It is good to feel validated by someone, somewhere, whose opinion can be respected.
I feel the same as the woman who asked the question. I, too, want only to marry a man who has a deep relationship with the true G-d--from a family, a people, a culture deeply devoted to worshiping and revering the only true G-d. In the American culture, such devotion to G-d is lost.
I, however, will not live life without Him central to it--and will not marry a man who does not feel the same.
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This has happened to me in the past as well with this issue as well as others and I've always noticed a double standard. For example, I would hear how it is crazy for me to want to marry only a Jew, but from that same person I was told how they would only marry someone who is super model thin and younger and not from another country.
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Rabbi Moss:
It's a heartening answer, but only a half- truthful one. Not all Jewish men and women are physically able to have babies, yet they still can create a family. And, contrary to your suggestion, same-sex Jewish couples can also have Jewish families.
Respectfully, in your own words, "You are talking about who you want to marry."
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Informative yet concise, witty and to the point! Thanks!
(I teach Hebrew High students and “Dating Jew vs. non-Jew” issue is a recurring theme in the classroom constantly raised by my students…)
So, as u can imagine, I can use ALL the resources I can get. THANKS !!
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Thank you for such a wonderful response to a problem that many Jewish women are faced with.
I for one have been called a racist several times for not wanting to date non Jewish men.
Marrage is a serious commitment and virtually guaranteed to fail if both parties don't have the same values and in my personal opinion commitment to G-d and Judaism.
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"And there is no racial issue here. Jewishness is neither a race, nor a religion. It is a soul identity. The man you marry can be a European Jew or an Oriental Jew, a black Jew or a white Jew. He can be a Jew by birth or a Jew by choice. But if you want a Jewish family, he's got to be a he, and he's got to be a Hebrew."
Rabbi Moss's answer was outstanding...I don't know of many Rabbis that would even suggest the idea of marrying other color Jews in response to a person's question on discrimination. Rabbi Moss is obviously a very educated Rabbi and more Rabbis should speak out on discrimantion in terms of religion and not the color of another Jew.
Well done!!!
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When the man used the term "racist" he meant bigoted. People often interchange the two & there are many forms of bigotry in the world. If we get stuck in semantics, we miss the Divine lesson to be learned & growth opportunity. There are many things people may want in a partner; financial security, emotional support, community standing, a home, dependablity, spiritual unity, etc.
We must watch our thoughts & words so that they do not become bigoted or offensive. The learning opportunity here resides in the halachot of shmrat halashon & refraining from onaat devarim. We don't need to blab (gossip about) our spousal criteria to others unless there's a shidduch involved.
If one does blurt, saying "I want to marry someone who shares my religious beliefs" is far more appropriate than "I would never date or marry a non-Jew." If you contemplate it, the two have very different connotations.
The lesson here is about -our- halachot of appropriate speech, not faulting the other guy.
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A Hebrew? A Soul Identity? I never thought of it that way!
I knew Jews came in different "packages", but I always had the understanding that Judaism was a religious faith that taught the belief in one God.
Obviously, this woman's Non-Jewish colleague is very misguided. The woman was talking about religion, NOT race.
"Mixed" Jewish Marriages exist - Ashkenaz and Sephard is one example. I sincerely believe that no matter what Jewish man this woman marries, I hope she'll be happy.
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What do gentile women think of this jewish woman who would not couple with a gentile male?
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I think it is interesting, and I generally emphasize, that the point is I believe in my religoun and want to raise children in this manner. Therefore I want someone with my same beliefs. But, as you stated, the point is not race but about how you will raise your children. Thus a convert is equal to a Jew of "Jewish Race." And the David hamelech example does well to bring home the point.
I am basically trying to say that I emphasize it is about the religous beleif and life and keeping that going. and if a person can truly go through what it takes to do an orthodox conversion they are attesting to their committment and can be my wife.
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Another answer is that g-d made sure your soulmate is a jew.
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It’s offensive & hurtful to declare "I would not marry a non-Jew" to coworkers or in any social situation.
The same applies a non-Jewish coworker declaring "I would never marry a Jew" to us.
"Onaat Devarim is often simply the product of insensitivity, or the mistaken belief that opinions on such matters as physical appearance, a new purchase, a spouse, someone else’s background or perceptions, and so forth, are open fields for frank discussion." Chofetz Chaim (CC)
"When one speaks to family, friends, even strangers, in a gentle, considerate way, one’s words become conductors of tremendous positive power." CC
"All my life I have been raised among the Sages, and I have not found anything better for oneself than silence. Whoever talks excessively brings about sin." R' Shimon
“Let the honor of your neighbor be as dear to you as your own."
"It is forbidden to utter a statement which essentially is not derogatory, if either the speaker or the listener considers it derogatory." CC
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i would only settle for a jewish wife.it is people with that attitude that are racist. to me as they think the world and all people in it should give up who they are and be like them. a bunch of no ones with no idententy, no roots
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I think it's truly amazing to hear how jews try and justify their bigotry. Why can't you just be honest with yourselves? You're bigots and you see nothing wrong with it. Please stop trying to rationalize it away with semantics.
I am a white woman and I wouldn't date or marry a black person. I admit to being bigoted in that aspect of my life. I have a right to choose any man I wish. I am not out to please the liberal society. I do not want half black/half white children for the same reasons you do not want half jewish/half gentile children.
I hope you are able to convince yourselves that you are not bigoted, because you certainly do not fool the gentile population.
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People outside the Jewish religion cannot understand how important it is to us to continue to marry within our faith. Even so, 50% of jewish marriages today are intermarriages. If we continue that way, we will wipe out ourselves very soon without any help from the anti-Semites!!
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I'm NOT Jewish and I see nothing wrong with Jews only wanting to marry Jews. There's a whole religious and cultural aspect associated with Judiasm that can only be respected intimately by other Jews. Even if I were to convert, I don't think I can truly relate to the total capacity of the Jewish culture and faith.
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I read your post and was a bit confused by it....you see a jewish person marrying a Non-jew is not supposed to be motivated by color lines, rather it is suppose to be rooted in a belief in a lifestyle that Jews share. I believe your analogy is very disturbing because whiteness nor blackness is a culture in its own right and Judaism in addition to be being a religion is indeed our culture. All this coming coming from a woman who herself is a Jew and black colored skin. Real jew.....not convert etc.
I think what I find even more disturbing is that, this individual may be thinking the same thing that many others feel as well. With that in mind, we as Jews should watch the way we treat the nochrim or strangers to our religion with some type of respect, and perhaps in time they will understand that Jewishness is the a universal culture for those of us blessed to be of this faith.
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it never ceases to amaze me that people come up with that stock accusation, when a Jew states their preference to marry a Jew. At my last job, my supervisor stated flaty that she, as a black woman would never date a white man. Did I consider her racist even though that is a racial issue. No, that is what she is attracted to. Black people can prefer black partners, Hispanics can prefer Hispanics, other ethnic or racial groups can prefer their own, but if a Jew prefers a Jewish partner that's racist. What hypocracy. You are not racist.
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For poster Malka: My dear, you speak in terms of treating the non-Jew with respect, which I certainly agree with. But in your post you have treated many fellow Jews with a lack of respect. I am a Jew by Choice and I studied for 10 years prior to my conversion. I have learned Hebrew, pray daily, attend shul weekly, and stood before a bet din and answered their questions and proclaimed my desire to be a Jew. I have never had any Jew refer to themselves as "real Jews", implying that converts are not real Jews. In fact, it is against Jewish law to single out converts. When there are so many who are against us, it saddens me to see one of my own defining classes of "Jewishness", with converts being last on the list. I suggest some more Torah study for you. I wish you well.
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I agree with your comments... but please know that the term is Asian Jew, not Oriental Jew!
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In most cases it is racist. An American Jewish woman is usually white and the vast majority of American Jews are white as well. They are rather not black Jews, are they?
There is a difference between being sexist and racist, Dear Author. Non-white and non-Jewish men are also men after all, so this comparison is purely demagogic on zour part. If an American white declares he (or she) is dating only American whites, that person is immediately considered racist and rightly. And there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG ABOUT IT. Race is a factor integrating populations into societies exactly as religion is such a factor as well. No-one says it is the only factor or that it is the most important of all factors, but just that it is such a factor.
The vast majority of people on this planet are racist to a grater or lesser degree. But only a tiny minority has the guts to admit it...
Cheers!!!
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One might add to the notion of Jewish identity, the issue of culture. To marry within one's culture, may seem to the ethnically uninformed, "ethnocentric." And yet the familiar practices of Judaism may be as binding as soul attraction.
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What is wrong with wanting to spend your life with some one who grew up with similar customs? It's so much easier not having to explain things such as traditions, humor etc. I feel that with intermarriage, usually the child is torn between both parents and chooses no religion at all.
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There is a (unique) problem concerning Jewish marriages and Australia. The entire population of Australia is approximately 20 million. Among those relatively few peoples is a tiny group of people (to select a prospective mate). This of course can (and often does) require young Jewish woman from either marrying a non jew or going through life single. A tough decision..
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All the responses to this question have been rather ambigous.
The facts are, that in expressing ones preference that a marriage partner share certain common traits is neither racist, nor even as one contended justifiable racism.
In such cases, a person is simply exercising a choice, a preference. The exercise of which is an inherent right of the individual. The potential flaw the choice resides in the motivating basis of their choice. That is, whether the choice is benign or malicous in nature.
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OK most of yall are being rather vague. Let''s do some nitty gritty.
I want a husband who will be active in the synagogue. A husband who says Modeh ani in the morning with me. A husband who dovens with tallis and tefillin every morning the way my father did.
Too much? Try this, for a bare minimum:
I want a husband who makes kiddush on Friday night and yomtov after I bentsh licht.
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This reminds me of the comments that were posted to the US News website recently. It seems that Israel has been accepting refugees from Darfur, but finally had to "close the door" if you will. Israel is after all about the size of Rhode Island. The criticisms are not to be believed, as can be imagined, everything from citing the Holocaust, to Nazism, blah, blah, blah. In the mean time, the people have several countries surrounding them, Egypt (about 100x bigger than Israel), Uganda, Chad, yet they are pressing on to Israel Why, well could it be that the surrounding countries are mostly Muslim and the people who are fleeing Sudan are Christians fleeing Muslim persecution. No one who criticized Israel, "wondered" why the Sudenese neighbors can't take in the refugees, all they could see is that Israel had to turn some people away. We are always blamed for everything, from wanting to marry someone of our own faith, or having to close the door because there is no more room. Silly me.
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Rachel is right on.
But about a Jewish husband:
I want a husband who makes kiddush Friday nights.
I want a husband who builds a sukkah in the fall.
I want a husband who conducts the seder.
If you can do that, I'll go out with you eagerly, regardless of race.
If you can't be bothered to do that, you're obviously not interested in ME.
Maybe you're even antiSemitic.
NO?
Well, if you don't do what I want, calling you that name makes at least as much sense as your calling me "racist" for not doing what YOU want.
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who like me can tell in many miles of words how much pain and suffering being married to a nonjew can be!
he has resented our holidays and shabbat, he just wanted to destroy our joy,
and till now i have not realized that i think with a jewish mind, and can not understand cruelty and not wanting to be connected to G-d and the jewish tradition.
the jewish soul longs to connect to another jewish soul , that is the way we are built , anything less is pain and suffering
ask me, i will tell you plenty
stick to your own , even if it doesnt work out at least your children will know a jewish home which is complete and whole and not division and arguments
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I married a convert. After all, we don't get a lot of Jews around here, and this is where my family wound up. My husband was sincere; he did not like Christianity and thought he might like being Jewish better since it didn't have "that man," whom the Christians worship, in it.
First of all, my child grew up with one grandmother who celebrated Christmas, etc. and who did not keep kosher. I remember the day when my little 3-year-old saw her eating ice cream and said, "Grandma, you're fleishig!" (She had just eaten meat, and Jews are forbidden to ingest dairy products for six hours after eating meat, in order not to mix Life with Death.) I said to him, "Grandma is a Christian, and it's OK for Christians to mix milk and meat."
As for my husband, it turned out that One Gd was one too many for him.
As for the child, he went to a Jewish day school and is married and shomer mitzvos.
(Ie he keeps the commandments, keeps kosher, keeps Shabbos, etc.
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I am married to a non jew, and he is a wonderful husband. Yes, there are challenges, and I admit, I long for him to be 'driving' the train, but he is very supportive overall, our girls go to hebrew and religious school, and he participates a fair amount. I believe a good husband supports his wife in whats important to her. Do note, not all Jewish men are religious. My mother (a widow) recently remarried, and hes Jewish, but gets annoyed celebrating passover, etc..
And naturally nonjews see this as non tolerant. What you say is, "I'm not racist. I respect people of all faiths, cultures etc.. However, it is extremely important to me to live and share my life with someone who is as intertwined with Judiasm as they are with me, and we will raise our children in the Jewish faith. That is why I want to marry a Jew, not because they aren't some wonderful non Jewish men". If the response is that you are limiting yourself, choices, etc..reply, true, but for Judaism, etc. Be happy!
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Will you go to synagogue with me?
Will you respect the fact that I am saving myself for marriage?
Are you OK with the thought of bringing up your children Jewish? He may say,"Children! I'm only asking for ONE date!" For your reply to this, see below.
If you keep Friday nights, this one is good:
Are you OK with never again going out Friday night?
(He may say, "never again!!!"--I'm only asking for ONE date!
To which you reply,
"You never know where 'one date' can lead. If you are not open to the possibility of entering into my way of life, the relationship can never go anywhere and there is no point in starting.")
This also works with the queries below on Jewish children, kosher, & Shabbat.
These next two only work if you keep kosher and/or Shabbat, but if you do, these are really really good:
Are you OK going only to kosher restaurants forever?
Are you OK with not driving or using money on Saturday during daylight forever?
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Try saying this:
"How do you feel about going out with someone who could never tolerate a Christmas tree in her home? Don't answer yet. Think about it."
My friend Erika, a Jew, had a Christian roommate. As December approached, the roommate wanted an Xmas tree. Erika couldn't think of an objection. But once the tree was up, it made her very uncomfortable. Trees outside were one thing, but to have one imvading her own space, her home, was really disagreeable. She did not have to explain. I would feel funny too. Maybe the "uncomfortable" feeling translates to feeling violated. I would not like it, and I'll bet you would not like it either. Imagine having to put up with a tree in your home, influencing your children, for all your married life.
This one question might do it for you.
Then add, "I don't date someone if I know it can never go anywhere. Promise me you can do w/o an Xmas tree."
He may lie and say Yes.
Ask him to do without pork, &c. He'll give up!
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Let's keep it short.
The phrase these days is "deal breaker"
As in, "the idea of an Xmas tree in my home is a real deal breaker for me"
As in, "the idea of pork in my home is a real deal breaker for me"
As in "I don't travel on Shabbos; that's a deal breaker for me"
And even though this jerk (he is really a jerk, calling you racist! He's just using this to pressure you to date him, you know, some guys are like that!)--even though he is probably willing to lie a little or even a lot to get one date, on which he hopes to pressure you into other things you don't want to do and which need not be spelled out here, in spite of all that, a good long sequence of deal breakers will finally get to him. Eventually, he will say to himself,
Who wants to date such a grouch? It ain't worth putting up with this all through dinner. Forget it!
Or, he will make an anti-Jewish remark, at which you can then yourself say,
"If that is how you feel about what I AM, forget it!"
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Many good points here. Perhaps Sara put it best. I'm one of those Jews with a liberal, secular background who used to see intermariage as almost the ultimate liberal sacrament of tolerance. My Dad did a token conversion to mary my Mom. I once asked a Jewess why she was prejudiced against gentiles. She beautifully explained that she was not bigotted at all; she said she could easily fall in love with almost any sort of person, but she simplly wanted a man who would share her religion with her. Then I got it.
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As a recent convert, I agree 110%. I want a Jewish husband and home as a way to strengthen and support my beliefs and grow spiritually. Is that racist, no. Is it discrimination, absolutely. It's no different from me saying that I won't date a smoker, someone that already has kids or that doesn't keep Kashrut. We all have choices to make, and you must be comfortable with those choices since you will spend the rest of your life dealing with the repercussions and responsibilies of them. I have decided that I will remain celibate and single until I find the one that HaShem has sent for me.
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A Jewish woman who wants a Jewish husband is not and cannot be called racist. Whites look to marry whites, yet that's never called racist. A black may prefer black friends.
Racism relates to institutional, political or societal unfairness. All people should be free to desire any "type" of marriage partner within the law.
Whether we limit our marriage choice by religion, race or looks, it is and--by definition--can never be anyone else's (or society’s) business. It can’t be “racist” as this Jewish woman’s “one-time marriage choice” doesn’t have any broad pernitious effect on non-Jewish men (maybe she's doing them a favor, who knows?)
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Personal choice can be racist and in many cases is racist. The fact that majority of people marry partners of the same race can be (though does not have to be) classified as racist. The thing is that racism is not only related to terms like "racial hatred" or "racial inferiority". Precisely like nationalism encompasses far wider meanings than the one of today's political slang. In fact race is one of factors contributing to integration of populations into societies. It is not the only factor, not even necessarily the most important one. It is just one of such factors, precisely like nationhood, religion, language, cultural background, patriotism, regionalism etc. Human conscience is a multi-level phenomenon and we are formed by those very "levels" of sense of belonging.
So even if it is undoubtedly true that religion itself does not impose racially motivated choices (in fact it quite often crosses racial and national boundaries...) in America Jewishness runs parallel to raciality.
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1) Racism is practiced by the group in power, which imposes disabilities and scorn upon the other groups. When Jews, Latinos, African-Americans, and Asians seek to maintain their integrity despite the normative position of the dominant culture, it is not racism, it is self-defense.
2) However, if the group in question is racially heterogeneous, as is true of the Jews, then "racism" becomes a red herring. There are many Asian Jews, many black African Jews (especially in Israel), many dark-skinned Jews from Yemen and from India, and even some native American Jews. I would marry an attractive man of any of these Jewish groups sooner than a white Christian or Muslim. My basis is non-racial: cultural & religious. On a similar basis, a Catholic may link with a Catholic, who goes for "works," for praying to the Virgin, and for transubstantiation, rather than with a Protestant, who abhors all three. As a Jew, I abhor all these & the Protestant faith as well, so I need a Jew!
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Racism is often practiced BOTH by the majority AND minority within a society. For BOTH it is a sort of self-defense: for the minority in order to maintain their integrity; for the majority - to keep the integrity of their society, defending it against disintegration and atomization. Not long ago in Australia a young Iraqi woman was murdered by her father and brother. She dared to break with the integrity of her ethnic and religious community and to marry someone from “outside”. Her father and brother – in their understanding – merely acted in self-defense…
The question asked here is whether it is racist to want a Jewish husband. The simple answer is that it might be or not, depending on circumstances. Itself such a choice is neither racist nor non/racist. I strongly agree, that a person has his/her right to decide – without anyone’s interference - whom to want as his/her spouse whatever the reason for such a desire, racist or not.
By the way : one of my friends, a dark-skinned Jew from India, who is also an Israeli citizen, complained to me – and namely quite a few times – about a “strong racism” against such Jews in Israel… So it is so, like e.g. among many Catholics of various races, that religious bonds do not always overcome racial differences even between co-religionists…
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You are correct in noting that some light-skinned Jews are prejudiced against dark-skinned Jews. I agree that this is racist.
However, I think that we can agree that preferring simply to marry a Jew (a Jew, regardless of color) is, if I may be trivial about it, like wanting to marry a golfer. If we wanted to marry a golfer, we might count ourselves fortunate to marry Tiger Wood. If we wanted simply to marry a Jew, we may be happy to marry a dark-skinned Jew from India, if he is sympatico. Being a golfer, or a Jew, is simply one of the life-activities that we want to share with our life-partner.
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The premise of your entire argument is fundamentally flawed. You compare discrimination of marriage with men with discrimination of marriage with Jews, and you cite these two things as equally as prejudiced. However, marriage with men is a biological imperative. Women need to marry and reproduce with men, otherwise homo sapiens would be an evolutionary dead end. You cannot get around the fact that the continuation of species is dependent on reproduction.
It is also important to note that Ashkenazi Jews are genetically similar, and this is the cause of a high rate of genetic diseases.
You say, "But if you want a Jewish family, he's got to be a he, and he's got to be a Hebrew." This is not true though, because anyone that is born from a Jewish womb is considered Jewish by the Jewish community.
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Yes, but he didn't say "if you want Jewish children"--he said, "if you want a Jewish family"--and the family includes her husband. Family activities include Shabbos meals and seders and many other activities in which the husband & father is male, is part of the household, and performs Jewish acts, such as making kiddush, dovening, etc. A female is also needed--to separate the challah & to welcome the Shabbos Queen & the holy days by lighting the candles, as well as to maintain family purity by going to the mikveh. If these activities are missing from the family, the Jews in that family are deprived of Jewish family life.
My father loved dovening. It meant a lot to him after all he had been through in Europe. It gave gave him peace & joy. I hate to think what my childhood family would have been like without my father's dovening every morning, or walking in smiling and saying "Good Shabbos!" and making kiddush on Friday nights. Those elements made our house a home.
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My fiance insists he baptized me. My mother died with a priest at her side, I try to get along as I found other non-Jews as friends. I am a Jew non the less.
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You were born a Jew and you have a Jewish soul and you remain a Jew. Your fiance has proved he cannot be trusted. If you want to marry a nonJew that is one thing, but at least marry one whom you can trust not to sneak holy water onto you without your knowledge and consent.
What ELSE is he doing without your knowledge and consent? Going into your bank account? Sleeping around and bringing home diseases?
What kind of respect does he have for your spirituality? You need to get shut of this man before he betrays everything you are and everything you want.
You deserves a man who treasures and respects you. Hang on, dear, Friday's coming!
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My parents and grand parents were all very proud Roman Catholics. My father's mother insisted, that he only date Catholic girls. It is exactly the same situation.
My friend is in the middle of finding a good Russian Othodox Christian husband, because she refuses to marry anyone else.
Anyone with a strong background fo any time, Ethnic, Religious, or even social class will insist on finding someone within that group.
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my comment is for those who believe that those of us who are american born and raised (as opposed to foreign born)some how cannot be real jews.....as opposed to any number of sectors that proclaim to be jewish ...your choice to become is admirable, and yes according to jewish law pointing out someone's choice to enter the religion or to return to the path would be an infraction.
The issue still remains that people are using an analogy of color choice to Jewishness choice for mates which is really wong. This analogy is comparable to comparing oranges to apples...the common thread is that they are both fruit. The choice to marry a Jewish husband should told to someone in simple terms its a personal choice and that she is searching for someone who has something in common with her....and that she can share these traditions with.
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Being Jewish is a soul trait, not a blood trait. Jews can have any blood type and can give and receive blood from anyone. Our "blood" is not "superior". But marriage is a deep and spiritual sharing at the soul level. If a man wants to keep kosher and the woman doesn't know how, or if the woman wants to hear kiddush and eshet chayil every Friday night and the man can't be bothered to learn to sing them, the family's spiritual life is seriously compromised. And if the woman doesn't know how to kasher the house for Pesach, or the man doesn't know how to conduct a Seder, how are they going to teach their children the spiritual message of Gd's deliverance of Bnai Yisrael from slavery to freedom, which is the primary salvational message of the Torah? Without Pesach, how can anyone appreciate Matan Torah, when Gd CAME DOWN onto Sinai and spoke to ALL OF US, not only to Bnai Yisrael but also to all OUR souls, present w/o bodies, vibrating in tune with that incredible Revelation?
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If someone is truly compatible but does not come from a Jewish mother, he has the option of going to an orthodox rabbi and saying, "I have always admired the Jews. I feel comfortable among Jews. it's amazing how the Jews have been so faithful for thousands of years, how they've stuck it out despite the persecution. I'd like to be a Jew, but I feel unworthy of that kind of courage and faithfulness."
If a person says that, he will be considered a candidate for "conversion" and he can get circumcised and can go into the mikveh and have his Jewish soul officially recognized.
If you really want to date Jewish women, this is the way to open the door. Go for it!
Of course, if you are a nerd, it's possible that Jewish women won't like you any better than any other women....but if you are good at Hebrew, they may really dig it!!
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You are advised to run from anyone who uses the term" racist" in the wrong way. Racism is thinking one race is better than another.
Why would wanting a traditional jewish family and spouse be "racist" . It has nothing to do with race or thinking that one race is better than another. We have a right to choice and preference. This this guy doesn't seem to know the difference, and sounds unintellegent. I've gotten to hate that phrase as it is used wrongly so often.
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Tell him you would marry an Ethiopian Jew or any other righteous convert or similarly a Jew from Kaifeng if he got converted. You would marry any honest Jew from any race if you met him and loved him. But you would not marry, or even date, any man, Jew or otherwise, who attempted to bully you into dating him or who called you ugly names.
And this man has done both. Goodbye to him.
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i m sorry but the answer is so true, if you want an apple tree, well you have to have apple seed, and thats that.
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over all the comments have made a clear statement: if you want to have a jewish family , you need to have a jewish man and a jewish woman , simole math
then you have jewish children , education is part of the equation
then a lot of work and love and you get what you want, not what happens to you by chance!
having said that jewish dating sites dont make it easy to find dates
they charge a lot of money and complicate connections, it is a busines where it should be a mitzva
i am a divorcing jewish woman of 44 and a mother of 3 children living in europe
seeking a jewish partner to complete ourfamily . i was married to a nonjew , he has found a non jewish woman , now it is time for us 4 jews to connect with a nice man ! applicants may apply now
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Just say that you are going to marry a Jewish negro from South Africa. Of yes! Their Cohan's do carry the Cohan gene, and yes, they are Jewish.
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As a gentile, I respect Jews as being at the forefront of progress and the morally aware and rigorously intellectual approach to life that is required by their faith. However I must say that I find the Orthodox attitude towards intermarriage to be one of the most bigoted and offensive creeds I've ever seen. A charming little booklet entitled 'How to Prevent An Intermarriage' (on the site 'Simple to Remember') went as far as to advise that the offender's parents should threaten to fast to death to prevent the titular disaster.
To me, this reeks of elitism, prejudice and frankly, hatred. I think these elements of Jewish society have become so enamoured of themselves that they think everyone else are Neanderthals. As an ethnic Chinese I am familiar with that mentality. Let me remind you that it did more to destroy us than 1,000 years of interbreeding ever could.
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Definition of a racist as defined by dictionary.com- "Discrimination or prejudice based on race.." You are discriminating and choosing a Jewish husband to the exclusion of other races. Are you a racist? You look at the definition and you tell me?
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As a jew myself, I had 2 gorgeous boys with a non-jew and now that we are no longer together, I put my children in jewish schools and decided I was going to find a jewish hubby- Why, because I want jews to continue existing and also I want to learn about my people and I want my children and their children to be jews who love their religion and their people. I am very proud to be jewish and want to grow as a jew and become more spiritual. Jews are great and I am soooo proud to be jewish that’s why I will marry a jew and nothing else. I am not racist, I just know what I want for myself and my children. Go Jews!
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I am a Jewish male who married a Chinese woman, the same ethnicity as you. Ironically I learned Chinese and not Hebrew. Please be aware that there are many elements in Chinese society that do not believe that Chinese should intermarry. Moreover throughout Chinese history non-Chinese have been derogatorily termed barbarians and the like. Chinese culture is often aggrandized and other cultures belittled. The name "China" means "Middle Kingdom" as if China is the center of the world.
As you respect the progressive elements of Jewish society, I have a deep admiration for Chinese culture and civilization.
I disagree with my orthodox bretheren regarding intermarriage but I do not think that most of them are bigots nor do I think that they view non-Jews as Neanderthals.
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Go ahead and say that Jews are a race if you like.
But there are 100 000 black Jews from Ethiopia in Israel right now, and a Jew can properly marry any one of them.
There are also Chinese Jews, and a Jew can marry any one of them.
There are Jews of every size and build and color, with eyes of blue, green, and brown, with hair of blond, red, brown, and black, with every shade of skin from pale to black.
All of these Jews are available for other Jews to marry.
It is not the body we seek when we wed a Jew. It is the Jewish soul, which can inhabit any kind of body.
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My boyfriend's parents both converted from Christianity to Judaism after their marriage, but retained some of their Christian attitude while not instilling a Jewish menality in their children. My boyfriend wants to be more Jewish than his parents and clings to his Jewish identity, but he doesn't look, think, or fully act Jewish. Coming from a semi-practicing Reform background, I am only now as an adult beginning to practice on my own, and I am still deciding what kind of Jew I myself am, and what the meaning of Jewish spirituality is. My boyfriend feels that I am being racist against his Christian-Swedish ancestry, and that it is unreasonable to expect him to be more Jewish when I myself was raised knowing barely more than the fact that I am Jewish.
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Wanting a Jewish husband is racist. But there is nothing wrong with it. Jews wanting to preserve their culture is not bad. Just because you want to preserve your culture does not mean you look down on others.
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I'm Jewish and I'm a lesbian.
Guess I'm not allowed to have a family, huh?
Oh, wait! I'm still fertile even if I don't have a husband. And there's this amazing thing called adoption.
Interesting concepts.
This is the reason that GLBT people suffer so much in many orthodox communities.
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There are 1000,000 black Jews in Israel. From Ethiopia, mostly.
If a Jewish woman is holding out for a Jew and doesn't stipulate his race, he could be anything.
So that's NOT racist.
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The christian man who was offended at Jews wanting to marry other Jews should check his Christian Bible. It says not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers. I.e., a Christian should wed a Christian. The same applies to Jews. And I know a Chabad congregation with many Chinese women in it. They seem to be converts, but they are Jews. So if a Jew can marry an Ethiopian Jew or a Chinese Jew, but not a white Christian or a white Muslim, how is that racism? Religionism maybe?
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I agree it is not racist to want a jewish mate but I think here you are missing the major point: It is your preference to choose your mate with your own criteria. I believe nowadays people are being too sensitive to talk about race or religion. I think the basic rule is the more private the issue, the more range of the criteria you get, because it matters you more. Sitting on the bus is rather more public issue, but I would still choose to sit beside a nice and good looking lady, rather a dirty-dressed man with scar on his face. Am I being racist or descriminated to dirty-dressed men with scars? You bet I do, my guts talks!
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Want to hear something strange? I would want to marry a Jew who would not want to marry a non-Jew. I guess I am wishing that I was a Jew.
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That is absurd! I could see if you said I'm not dating other races whether they practice Judaism or not. That would be racist.
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I know many Christians who will not only date just Christians, but only those who beling to a spcific type of Christianity, like Baptist, Catholic, etc. No one accuses them of discrimination.
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Exactly. But all I am saying is if you want to marry someone within your religion, that is fine. But race should have nothing to do with it. If you both serve The Father then race should not become a determining factor.
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How can a Hebrew Be Oriental. This makes no sense.
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This is so biased as to the comments you print and some of them are so racist you cannot see past your own racist noses.
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I'm not sure who replied to my post but I got an email notifying me that someone did. Basically, what I was saying is that I want to marry a Jewish man who was raised Jewish & loves Israel so much that he wouldn't mind moving there. I would want him to be very knowledgeable about the BIble and follow G-d very closely. I wish that Israel would let me come and stand with them in arms against her enemies.
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AARON: "Does insisting that you will only date men make you sexist?"
HENRY: No, Aaron. It makes you heterosexual.
AARON: "if you want a Jewish family, he's got to be a he"
HENRY: Not true. Gay jews certainly adopt or through artificial insemination have children. And gay jews, in two states currently with probably many more on the way, can legally marry.
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I think this thread just forked here. Now that the topic of homosexuality has grafted itself into this branch of discussion.
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GENEVON, it was AARON MOSS who invited the issue of homosexuality into this discussion with his two statements: (1) "Does insisting that you will only date men make you sexist?" and (2) "if you want a Jewish family, HE's got to be a HE". And if you'll read the threads above, I am not the first to challenge him on those statements. What's more, remember, Massachusetts and Connecticut allow marriage equality. Other states like New Jersey are likely soon to follow, as you know. So, expanding the discussion a little bit: Is it Racist for Me, a Gay Man, to Want a Jewish Husband? And on that I would agree with Aaron Moss: No, it is not.
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An oriental Hebrew (or Jew) means that this person or his/her ancestors come from an Asian country, like Jemen, or even China, not that (s)he is what Americans call and 'oriental', viz. e.g. a Korean or Chinese person or a person with e.g. Chinese ancestry. This has all noting to do with racism but with values. People like to share values with their spouse, and it does not matter whether that spouse is black, white, yellow, brown or from the same culture/country etc. as long as they have the same values. I am European, my husband is American (and believe me, there are big cultural differences), but we fully agree on what we expect from marriage and on how to raise the kids. That's what counts.
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I agree that expectations from marriage and how to raise the kids are very important things to agree about. It's also important to agree on the Faith.
I haven't read each of the posts so I guess I'm not sure when the subject of homosexuality entered in originally. It's just the most recent ones that I've read. One of my best friends is gay but he doesn't know that I know about it. We have never discussed it. He does know my beliefs on it though, since I was quite verbal before I found out that he was one himself. I still love him though. I'm hoping he won't remain one since I want him to go to Heaven.
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Racism is at the core of the situation. Yes, it certainly is racist, but not necessarily bad. My concern is for the Jewish person who is ostracized for failing to make faith a priority. To pass judgment based on one characteristic is the textbook definition of discrimination. Racism is perhaps not the proper term, but it is of the same variety.
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The Jews were rejecting in Europe partly for being non-christian but also for being non-European.
The Holy Land is in Asia. That's why it's called the MIddle EAST.
And by the way, "oriental" is a patronizing way to refer to Asians. It comes from the word "orient" which means east of Europe and thus presumes that Europe is the number one spot from which all others are to be gauged. If you are IN Asia, you are not "east of" yourself. Asia is "west of" San Francisco. It is only "oriental" if you orient yourself FROM EUROPE.
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Go to a modern orthodox synagogue. Go regularly and see how you like it.
If you still wish you were a Jew, approach the rabbi and ask for instruction. Maybe you were born with a Jewish soul and you can "convert" and make it official.
Once you have converted modern orthodox, most all Jews will recognize you as a Jew. But eventually you may want to convert Lubavitch as well. Since by then you will have a "track record" of keeping kosher and doing the other mitzvot, there is a good chance that they will convert you their way too.
Conversion involves learning the bare essentials, going in the Mikveh (sacred waters), and being officially declared a Jew by a Bet Din (a court of three rabbis). If you are a man then of course you need to get circumcised before going in the Mikveh. While you are in the mikveh you will experience the awakening of your Jewish soul. Everyone I know who has gone in the mikveh has told me of this experience.
As a Jew you can marry a Jew.
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I realize that the halachah assumes that it is, but look at the language. The Bible has 3 ways to mention sex: to lie with, to know, and to go into. It could have said, Thou shalt not lie with mankind to know him and to go into him. That would clearly have meant not to have homoerotic sex. But it does not say that. It says, Thou shalt not lie with mankind AS WITH WOMANKIND. Well, of course not. It's impossible to lie with mankind AS WITH WOMANKIND. Mankind doesn't have the equipment for it. And the Bible HAS two expressions to make it clear that it means "having sex wtih" but instead it says AS WITH WOMAN kind. Maybe it merely means not to have sex with a hermaphrodite?
And theTalmud, in the interest of "fairness," forbids Lesbian sex as well. Why? I can see warning against wasting seed, but Lesbians don't waste ovums. A woman can have sex with another wman and her ovulation can still be the occasion for getting pregnant. The Bible rightly did NOT forbid Lesian sex.
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The Christian text says "be not unequally yoked with unbelievers."
Why does a Christian WANT to marry a Jew--or any other nonChristian who does not consent to become Christian?
OK, suppose there are no nations with a Christian majority, or only one the size of New Jersey. Everywhere else the vast majority (99%) are either Muslim or Buddhist. And you are a Christian in a Buddhist nation. Will you
*date everyone and marry whoever appeals to you, knowing your home will have a Buddha statue & your children will be taught Buddhism?
*date only those who would agree not to have a statue of the Buddha in your home?
*date only those who would consider becoming a Christian?
*seek out and date only those who are already Christian?
Notice that race is not a factor!!!
Christians come in all races.
And so do Buddhists.
And so do Jews!
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I am agnostic, though was raised Catholic since I was little. My boyfriend is Jewish, though I had no idea he was until after we began dating; to me it didn't matter because in the modern world you can't pick your soul mate. You find each other, regardless of religion or race.
I have no desire to convert, though if we had children, I would have no problem with him raising them Jewish.
Is that such a problem to marry a non-Jew? I feel that because I am showing respect for the religion (I would even do a Jewish wedding ceremony) I feel I should also be shown the same respect.
I do understand the desire for families to see the Jewish community grow. But don't assume if they don't marry a Jewish person, the Jewish faith will not continue on.
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Man and women were created as companions for each other. Religion was created by man to separate and alienate. G-D created us with the greatest gift of all..The ability to Love. Would you forego the second greatest Love of your life simply beacuse the person doesn't fit your cardboard cut-out? There are Good Jews, christians,buddists, hindi, muslims as well as terrible ones. G-d has many faces to many people. G-D wants a Man to be with woman. That we know as fact so the first part of the statement is absurd. I take insult to people who believe that just because someone happens to be something, or come from somewhere, makes them a better person. No group is any better than another. Its the individuals. If I said "Don't marry Jewish women because once you do they won't fufill their duties at night" I would sound totally absurd, and rightly so. Not all jewish women are like that. thats stereotyping. Love comes to you. Its magical., spectacular, and Love chooses you not vice-versa
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Oriental is a commonly used term for Jews with Middle Eastern (i.e. Oriental) ancestry such as Yemen or Iraq. The Hebrew word for Oriental (or Eastern) is "Mizrachim" and it is perfectly acceptable. Incidentally, there is nothing "patronizing" about calling a region by a direction (e.g. Eastern, Western, Oriental, etc.). "Europe" comes from the old Greek word for West, and Asia comes from the ancient Greek word for East. In the ancient Greek worldview, Greece was the center, so everything west of Greece was Europe, while everything east of Greece was Asia, so even if you call people from China, Japan, etc. "Asian", you are still calling them "Eastern", and there is therefore no reason not to call them "Oriental" which means the exact same thing!
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That's from one of Paul's epistles.
If you regard your style of worship as unimportant, that is where you are at.
We Jews regard our relationship to Gd as integral to who we are. Gd, the Torah, and the Holy Land are the roots of our soul. Our soul mate must have the same roots to his/her soul.
I suppose I might marry a non-Jew if he agreed never to mention any object of worship (such as Jesus or Buddha or Krishna), never to have any idols (such as a statue or a crucifix) or an Xmas tree in the house, never to bring pork or other unkosher meat into the house, always to respect my separation of the dishes, pots, pans, etc. into dairy on one side of the kitchen, meat on the other side, and in every way to avoid inflicting on me customs from any religion of his forebears, while permitting me to inflict on him the Pesach Seder, the Friday night dinner blessings, and all the other daily and seasonal practices that go with being a Jew. But would that be fair to him?
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Why did he mention it at all?
If he wanted to make a point, he could have said, "Jewish women all have wings" or some other statement that was obviously nonsense.
Instead he chose to broadcast an idea which is false but possible.
The fact is, by the way, that Jewish women are highly passionate and enthusiastic. But most will not say so, as they are taught to be modest. Until the time comes, and then have at it.
Perhaps Jewish women are concerned that men who are not raised Jewish might not be able to deal with this high a degree of enthusiasm, but are confident that Jewish men can.
But marriage is about more than that.
True marriage occurs at a soul level.
What stirs in your soul when you see a Torah? Do you feel like kissing it?
When you hear Hebrew, does it open a path to Gd?
When you set foot in Jerusalem, do you feel the tremendous spiritual energy rising from the ancient stones, from the soil?
If YES, marry me!
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yes, and Xmas tree is an insulting term as well. It is like saying something nasty about a Jewish holiday. So at least try a bit harder to hide your racism if you are trying to be convincing in the rarionalization.
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There is nothing offensive about the term "Xmas". Historically, the X has been a sort of Christian shorthand for "Christ". It started because the Greek word for mashicah "christos", starts with the letter chi, which looks like an X in our (Latin) alphabet. It's not uncommon to see Xmas for Christmas or "Xtian" for Christian in writings throughout the las 2000 years. Your offense is unfounded.
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To those who are gay or lesbian or who have written that gays can marry in at least two states as if that somehow invalidates the Rabbi's point, it doesn't invalidate it in the least. Gays may be able to marry according to the laws of those states, but not according to Judaism, and which one is more important to us?! Two Jews with a state-issued marriage license do not a Jewish marriage make. The fact that state laws may allow an interreliggious or same-sex marriage to be legal (i.e. state sanctioned) has no effect on halacha. The Rabbi's still right on that most important point.
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If you are a real Jew, read the Sacred Book (The Holy Bible) the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deutronom. The Almighty God told Moses to tell Israel not to intermarry with the tribes of Cannan or those around them. It is now specifically stated in Deutronom 28 v 1 to 14 about the results of obedience to God's word. From Verses 15 of the same book speaks about results of disobedience.
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Ok, so for all the people in places like Kiryas Joel who want their kids not to be exposed to kids of other religions or other ideas on the bus. Well what if I, a a white non-Jew, insisted that I didn't want my kid sitting next to or being exposed to other, say Jewish, kids and their ideas because I love my traditions and culture so much and don't want to risk their going astray. Is that racist? YES and back at you.
There are camps near I live where they BRAG about how separate they keep the kids from gentiles. You need to move to a religious state where all your religious whims that exclude others will be met. NOT America where we intermarry and have a melting pot.
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Hi, Jane. It's not racist because it doesn't have anything to do with race. A person of any race can become a Jew if he or she is sincere in his or her convictions and goes through a conversion according to halacha (Jewish law). The same can't be said about race. For example, a Chinese person or an American Indian can't become white, no matter how much he may want to because a person's ancestry can't be changed. Regardless, ANY group, be it a religion, race, culture or otherwise, has a right to want to preserve itself and make sure it goes on in the coming generations. That's not racism but self-preservation because your children and their children are a part of you and you have a right to have them be like you (this is one reason why intermarriage is forbidden). For some reason, whites have been taught it's bad to want to preserve their culture and traditions while promoting everyone else's right to do so. Wanting to preserve your heratige doesn't mean you hate everyone else!
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for some reason? violence, killing, torture , concentration camps come to mind as reasons. In the not too distant past people didn't allow Jews in their neighborhoods, their schools, their clubs , purely because they were Jewish. Hitler didn't care if a Jew converted to Christianity--he killed them anyway because he was a racist pig. Now anyone who defends this racism is as racist as Hitler.
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Jane Wilder is a bigot!! I am African American and Jewish and I found it quite offensive that you wouldn't have a half black child. By the way, my husband is caucasian and also Jewish. Just so you know, Judaism is a religion, one in which anyone who is sincere, can convert. I would not marry a non-jew because they do not share my values as an Orthodox Jew. When a Jew says they want to marry Jewish, people are quick to yell discrimination, but when a Christian says it, no one calls the Christian a racist. Marrying within our religion is vital in order for the Jews to continue to flourish. If we didn't abide by Halacha and married whomever we wanted, in a short period of time, Judaism would cease to exist. Apart of me thinks that's what people want anyway. In response to one of the above posts, if the woman is not Jewish, the children will not be Jewish. It doesn't matter how you decide to raise the children.
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You've nailed it, Ortho. Because anyone of any race can become a Jew, insisting on marrying a Jew is not racist- PERIOD! As the article recognizes, it is discriminating, but people have every right to and do discriminate when searching for a spouse. I've known Orthodox Christians who only want to marry other Orthodox, born-agains who will only marry another born-again. And it doesn't stop with religion. I know men who discriminate against women who aren't particularly attractive or who smoke. I also know women who won't even look at men who don't have a certain income or a college degree or if they already have children. Are they limiting themselves? Yes. Is that wrong? Absolutely not. It's their right. That's not the same as telling someone "sorry, the apartment's been rented" because you don't like their skin tone. We may be a "melting pot", but no one can be forced to intermarry. Besides, when has anyone or anything been praised for being "indiscriminate"?
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Ok, its religious/ethnic bgotry-but not on my part and btw, II DO have a child of another race so clam up orthochick. I was using the example as another example of bigotry-learn to read at least before you insinuate or infer. If you wouldn't like Jews or any other group to be treated as unacceptable by a society, you have no right to treat others as unacceptable. When Jews used to be barred from clubs and politics and other groups the rest of us fought for Jewish equality and right to mingle at any college. Now this is the answer the non-Jews of the US get. Oh yeah, well we can't go to school with you or sit on the bus with you or go to camp with you or eat at your house or have you use our sink or cook our food, because what if our kids are exposed to you fall in love and want to marry you--NOT THAT!! well that is bigot
I said race because many Jews in Israel insist it is a race . So have it both ways . I don't care--you are still the one who is a bigot while we are name calling
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I am a Nigerian American Jew of (IGBO) ANCESTARY. According to our oral tradition and customs which is called" ome ri ali" meaning our way of life; we are jews who were part of the scatered rememant. Now, the new reawakening in the Igbo of their Jewish heritage can only be classified as a miracle. I for one, my story can only be attributed to devine perovidence. This return of the Igbos after more than 1500years of conversion by force, and seduction by Christaindom( Britsh), is happening one in a family, one from a clan, two from a village all over Igbo land only by devine grace.
Now, G_d has blessed me with daughters, and son. Imagine, after more than 1500years of all my ancestors, I am the only one whom G_d has show favour to be redeemed. Do you really think i would be glad to see that wasted for my children to marry gentiles? Do you?. May G_d never allow me to see that.
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I understand this lady's desire to marry Jewish as I am a Christian raised man who seeks a Jewish wife. I have studied books on interfaith marriages. Most of my Jewish friends and my parent's Jewish friends have married outside of the faith. Success seems to depend on the commitment of the husband and wife to each other. My first principles in this matter are to focus on the common ground and respect difference which apply to nearly all successful relationships. Focus on the success stories and learn form the mistakes of others. When you make a mistake, say "I'm sorry" and hope for the best.
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just to correct something: '' He can be Jew by birth or Jew by choice''. I am not Jew but I know that you can never ever can be a Jew by choice...you are born as a Jew...there is no any other way you can be a Jew.
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Racism is racism no matter how you spin it. If you won't associate with or marry a person because of their religion and then say, "my religion made me do it," the religion is bigoted.
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You can be a Jew by choice if you do an Orthodox Jewish conversion by a Orthodox beit din.
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Why is it the Jews have to explain everything we do. Darn. If an Indian says I want to marry a nice Hindu boy no one shakes a finger or bats and eye. They just say invite to the wedding because I think Hindu wedding is cool and I like the food and the clothes. But when a jewish woman says this people get their panties in a bunch. I am a Jew of Colour and I want not only a Jewish man but someone Mizrahi like myself. People think that I killed a puppy. It is a personal preference. Intermarriage is very high among Jews in America so if one wants to actuall marry a jew so be it and wish her well
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I have to check the comment out that it's a mixed marriage if one person is Sephardi and the other is Azkanazi with my trusted Rabbi Cotlar.
I don't believe that If I prefer a Jewish woman because of her values I'm discriminating against other women. I would say I want a family Where I have a good idea what kind of life we may look forward to living.
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If a white guy refused to entertain the mere idea of dating a jew based on wanting to find a caucasian woman for a wife he'd be harpooned by accusations of racism. We are not so far beyond the pre-jungle fever 1980s that this isn't apparent. Indeed, what we seem to have here is a typical double standard professed by those who want their cake while eating it too. I'm all for relationships across cultures, ethnic identity and race; unfortunately, the op seems to confuse gender with ethnicity in a mad dash to rationalize one way racism. "Soul Identity"? Give me a break.
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I am sorry, but the comparison drawn in this article is quite awkward, and also wrong.
To date women or men is a matter of attraction - nothing you choose. The classification (at least if you have a healthy approach to your sexuality) comes afterwards. I am attracted to women, ergo, I label myself gay / hetero / etc.
But if you decide to only date JEWISH people, it doesn't mean you're NOT attracted to non-jewish people - it just means you restrict yourself, for societal / religious / ... reasons. It means, I define WHO I date first, and ignore all the attractions I might feel that don't fit my pattern.
Of course, this approach has certain fundamentalist aspects. Because if you choose your partner based on religion --- this means that religion to you is more important than character, background, experiences, even feelings. I mean, why not. If you don't hurt anybody with your fundamentalism...
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Why do Jews always have to answer to people Jane Wilder if you are not Jewish then why would it matter to you anyway. I am a jew of colour and would not even entertain the thought of being with a non-Jew. But again No one Bats and eye when a Greek man marries a Greek woman an intermarriage in that community is quite low. No one bats and eye when and Assyrian or Chaldean marry someone of that same background. No one. A billion Indians a Billion Chinese. 14 Million Jews on the entire planet about 1 percent or so of the entire population of the planet and People are STILL upset that we are here that we should just marry out and disappear because when I hear these remarks this is exactly what comes to mind. I have never heard this said to a Hindu a Greek Orhodox or GASP a Muslim woman. And they rarely marry out too. The men marry everyone but usually the women stay in the group. Why does it seem like a crime to marry and love someone from the same background without the Backlash hatred
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coming from a 2% minority in the US how would you like it if the non Jewish world in the US said, we don't want them in our schools or clubs because we don't want our children to date or marry them, and they were excluded from all sorts places because of their relgion-that would be racist and so is proclaiming that God only wants Jews to marry Jews. Some white supremacists feel the same way--the Christian Identity people feel this way and what makes you any different from those nasty racists. They want to continue their heritage too --some even allow non-white converts who support their traditions--you are no different--but can't see it.
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This a great topic to comment and learn of the many concepts and ideas Jews and non Jews have of each other.
If a sage will step up and explain from the beginning how Jews became Askanazie, Sephardic, etc. It would educate a lot of people who may have questions regarding these differences. In the beginning I would think most Jews looked similar to other people im the Middle East. Their names would certainly not be Goldman, Silverman, Schrieber or Stien. Only when they became inhabitants of Azkanaz or Germany, the host country, did this conversion take place. How can it be possible that intermarrying throughout Europe did not take place? Weren't the laws obeyed or was it a good thing to belong to a highly civilized country like Germany; the pillar of western civilization, as it is referred to by many Germans and others today ?
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because the same reaction would be triggered if a hindu father forbits his daugher to marry a buddist, or if a muslim expells his daugher due to dating a christina, or if my greek father was not invited by my christian aunt due to be an orthodox foreigner and the fear of watering down her sisters catholic practises, and because I now have to suffer the ignorance and rejection of my jewish boyfriend and his sudden guilt towards his observant brother and his beloved mother to love me. I feel dehumanised, humiliated, deeply hurt by this story and I see this issue now with other eyes. I say, stay within your borders, consider your identity and protect other sould from pain and sadness of your exclusive fear of loosing identity. Do not start a love relationship if you are not ready to accept another human being as an equal and valuable partner. Make the choice between partner and tradition before you cause so much pain. Then there will be no more why again.
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How can it be racist when there are Jews of ALL races?
Doesn't a Christian prefer to marry a Christian?
So why the uproar if a Jew prefers to marry a Jew?
Paul said, "Be not yoked unequally with nonbelievers".
That is one place where we believe Paul got it right.
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You are absolutely right.
A Jew whose intent is to establish a Jewish family and raise Jewish children has no business dating others and, as you seem to say, toying with the affections of those whom he is committed never to marry. He should only date women whom he intends to consider marrying.
And if a man or woman refuses to go on a date with someone, s/he should not be called a racist for establishing his/her personal boundaries from the gitgo. It's like dating only non-smokers. Each person has the right to his/her boundaries and values, and others should respect that.
And it is foolish for a Jew, or anyone else, to date people that s/he would never marry.
This creates the possibility of bonding and of terrible pain for both parties.
Seek out those who are appropriate marriage partners, and then if and when bonding occurs, the marriage can proceed.
That is just common sense, whether the issue be a common faith or other common values such as smoking.
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I made the mistake of marrying a non Jew when I was not religious. As I grew older I became more traditional and MUCH more religious and now every day of my life is a struggle with my concience. I feel seperated and torn and NEVER, NEVER happy because of a decision that I don't know how or if I can correct. The repercussions are too serious...the harm that can be done too great..to yourself, to others, G-d forbid, to your children! Think long and hard, my friends before you make this mistake. You know you are not a racist! You don't have to explain yourself to anyone but you DO have to live yourself!Hopefully for a long, long time.
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Almost every single Jewish guy I have dated has cheated on me. If you want to date Jewish men make sure they are religious
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How about, Is it racist to want a Buddhist husband?
How about, Is it racist to want a Hindu husband?
Good grief! What a silly idea!
How about, OF COURSE NOT!!!
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My sister has been married to a Jewish man for nearly 30 years, has 3 children. I and myself consider ourselves "recovering catholics" because we do not believe that the only way to God is being catholic. My daughter's husband is also Jewish and they have a son-- my only grandson. What is so upsetting to me is that my grandson is not considered Jewish because his mother isn't the one who is Jewish. I should also note that my daughter is 1/2 Black--- I am 1/2 Polish (making her 1/4 Polish), and my grandson's great great grandmother was Irish, and great great grandfather was Cherokee Indian (from the black side of the family).We find our family to be a big melting pot of what Americans are--and to call my daughter Black or even white because I am white is as wrong as saying my grandson doesn't have the birthright of being Jewish because the wrong parent is Jewish.
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No one on this blog is saying that the children are not Jewish because of your family's background. The children are not Jewish because according to Jewish law the mother has to be Jewish. You may not like it, but Jews live by Halacha (Jewish law). Just because your daughter's husband chose to ignore the law, doesn't mean that other Jews will or should.
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Since we are on the subject of race. I just want to say that I am fully black and fully Jewish. I found out 6 Years ago My mother is a Jew and My grandmother was a full Jew by birth. I was thrilled when I found out and wanted to tell the whole world. But now I don't tell ANYONE because I fear they will not believe me just because of the colour of my skin.
Why is there such division between white and black jews. Its as if black jews are not seen as real Jews. Thats the impression that you give me.
Answers Please!!!!!
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I am "fully black (although I loathe the term) and fully Jewish." Part of the issue is that most black people who claim to be Jewish really aren't as their mother or grandmother had a non-Orthodox conversion. Meeting enough of these people would make anyone 2nd guess their status. I often do. The second issue is that black Jews insist on separating themselves from the greater Jewish community. They also include elements in the prayer that are not traditional for Ashkenazim and Sephardim. A huge no no! I have lived in several communities and quite often go to other Orthodox, even ultra-Orthodox communities, and have never had an issue because of race. BTW - I do not have light-skin . Once people know that you are Jewish according to Jewish law, your Jewishness WILL be accepted. My only advice is for you to make sure you are in fact Jewish (Orthodox conversions in your mother or grandmother's past) and reach out to Chabad to understand what it means to be a Jew. Much success!!!
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We have several Jewish black families here in Toronto. Of course, there are bigots everywhere, but these people don't seem to notice--certainly never mention it.
Nobody should be ashamed to stand up and say "I am a Jew," if they know that to be true. And if there are those who are prejudiced, ignore it and they will forget their prejudices as well.
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The answer given to the question is excellent..
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Your behavior may or may not be considered racist depending on what sort of meaning do you input in to the word "jewish." If by "jewish" you mean a man who follows Judaism as a religious practice (e.g. black man converted to judaism), then you are merely sublimating your identity by being observant in your religion. On the other hand if by "Jewish" you man a man of a jewish race (e.g. ethnically Jewish man who is a christian convert) then your behavior is indeed racist
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I found the love of my life, a jewish man. But unfortunatley his parents and his family are creating a gap between us, a forced separation of realities and add a lot of grief to me. Why? Because I am not Jewish. They implement guilt in their son and treat me with great ignorance. It hurts and it causes a great deal of anger. I call it an exclusive ignorant attitude, which has nothing meaningful to it, nothing intresting or humane. My view on observant jews changed from an open mind to meet and to learn to big frustration, sadness and almost discust. I feel put back into the middle ages, narrow minded lifes, exlusive, full of fear of interacting with the so called others. I feel upset, in the same way as if people of my faith reject Darwin, or if (there we re back by the term racism) nationality is subject of jugment rather than the human behind his passport and accent.
It is up to you to open up and live by human rights and integration rather than by separating, blind religious laws.
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My boyfriend loves me because I am kind, and I listen to his troubles. We build our lives as we find ourselves alone. People have disappeared and I cling to my friend. I am also upset all of the time. I clig to my friend because he doesn't go away. I think our friendship will someday be in for a change. M friend wants me to be Catholic. I do not care to change as I am not his wife. I feel tolerant of others.
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I agree with Hiro - though I say with emphasis that being Jewish isn't an ethnicity, it's a faith or religion. The notion that it is a nationality or ethnicity is forced and unnatural. It's also putting unnecessary barriers between human beings.
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As others have pointed out, Judaism is not a race.
Certainly, If one wants to find a Jewish husband or wife, then one needs to live within a Jewish community and socialize with other Jews.
That is not to say that a potential non-Jewish mate cannot become a Jew. But the conversion can never be for the sake of marriage.
It is also equally plausible that one not residing in a Jewish community could find a Jewish spouse to be their soulmate or beshert.
It is also plausible that the Jewish spouse could not be of the same ethnic or racial identity as theirs. So, technically a Jew can be a racist if they refuse to marry or socialize with a Jew of a different ethnicity /race and that Jew is considered inferior politically and socially.
In any case, it is not racist to desire a Jewish wife or husband. But to be sure it happens, one should live within a Jewish community and Jewishly observant.
Now about attraction ... That's an altogether different animal.
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I stopped dating Jewish men when they stopped showing any interest in me because of my divorce. Jewish men took me to bed, to dinner, etc. No real relationship.
My non-Jewish friend showed interest in me right away, and was always a gentlemen.
I have lived in places in America with no Jewish food isle.
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There are two ways to get a Jewish soul.
One is to be born of a Jewish mother.
The other is to be converted orthodox, culminating in immersion in the mikveh.
And it CAN be for marriage. If you sincerely convert with the determination to be kashrut and mitzvah observant, you will experience the beauty of serving Gd. The main thing, however, is that you love being around Jews--yes, your potential mate and his/her family, but all the other Jews in his/her congregation too. And that you want a Jewish life for your children. If you love us and identify with us, by all means convert, be one of us, and marry us. We are delighted to have you and delighted that you have married one of us.
I will admit that Jewish women are jealous when one of our men marries a convert. It means there are fewer men left for us. But many times a Jewish woman, like me, will marry a man who has converted for her, as my husband did for me.
It is perfectly fine to convert so as to wed.
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shoshana, i have heard that is not the case... someone must sincerely wish to be a jew, just wanting to marry a jew is not enough.
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How do the arguments change when the discussion turns to a Jewish women falling in love and marrying outside the Jewish faith?
Her children will be Jews and may continue to build up the Jewish community.
How do the examples of Queen Esther (Book of Esther) and Ruth apply today. Esther's husband did not convert and Ruth did convert?
Where these marriages considered successful?
Should the books of these women be included in the Torah?
What lessons can Jewish women learn from these marriages?
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I applaud you for saying this. For some reason people wanting to marry within their religion and raise a family in that religion is a modern wrong. The modern world is full of people who believe things which have caused society great harm. A short list includes cohabitation, premarital sex, abortion...
I am Christian. God bless.
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Yes, it is true if the woman is Jewish, then the children are Jewish.
The crux of the problem isn't so much the non-Jewishness of the father, as the affinity towards a Jewish lifestyle and preserving Jewish religious practice for future generations. In other words, will the children and their children llive Jewishly or not.
One can be selective about a mate without being called racist or bigoted. You don't have to cohabitate, marry, have conjugal relations or accept their POV about every issue to avoid this label.
Just as the prospective mate should be loving, caring, and non-threatening, he/she should share the other's religious and moral values.
In Ruth's and Esther's time, there was no Christianity and/or Islam (I'm not anti-Christian or anti-Islam, but these two faiths are the ones that attract Jews, as well as Buddhism, atheism, paganism). Yes, there was pervasive idolatry, non-belief (atheism), and paganism, as there is now. Judaism was different back then.
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I think people have really misconstrued the word "racist" into justifying their own prejudices which have nothing to do with race. Marriage is a private matter and is determined by a persons own preferences not prejudices. I hope this person is not your friend as I would seriously question anyone's intentions who passes such harsh judgments.
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All the talk about this issue misses the point in my opinion. How one wants to life his life is a private issue. The problem is if feelings, emotions and expectations of others are involved. If a Jew is consequent and does not give hope or love to a non Jew, if he or her is honest to his or hers own identity and culture, that is fine. The harmful situation is the incosnsequence to get close to a non Jew but then put the religion as a cleft or as a reason of non acceptance and difference which becomes a problem and is very unfair and problematic. I lost my love of my life due to similar reasons. Please, be honest to yourself, to your culture and protect non Jews from falling in love with you. Be strong and true, know yourself and what you want and then go out in the more openminded and tolerant world, know your borders and limits and dont harm other people with your strict limitations of identity and culture. It is good for you, it is harmful for others.
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I thought this was a wonderful answer Aron! Thank you!
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I would answer that intermarriage is not a racial or ethnic problem, but a problem of SYNCRETISM of mutually-exclusive beliefs and values. Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Agnosticism are all by-products of syncretism. In biblical terms, the Torah warns as of THE MIXED MULTITUDE, the confused multitude, mixed by syncretism.
This is not a racial concept, but a moral concept. Syncretism through intermarriage creates confusion and destroys our values,
if not in the first generation, in the second or third generation. Reform and Conservative Judaism are more vulnerable to assimilation, because the cause of assimilation is syncretism. Assimilation is only the effect of syncretism.
Disclaimer: On the basis of Torah law, Jews can marry any ethnic group and even eunuchs and foreigners can be united into the Israelite people. Unity creates ethnic diversity. Syncretism creates confusion, lack of unity, ethnocentrism and racial discrimination.
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I agree with "The Mixed Multitude" post. We should practice "Ahavas Yisroel" no matter what ethnicity, race, etc., is represented by a fellow Jew. As long as they are Jews (halachic convert or born to Jewish parents (at a minimum, a Jewish Mother)) and not practicing some syncretic derivative. We should love the non-Jew as well, but not marry into that culture.
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Rabbi Moss, your eloquent writing and insightful words, leaves much to ponder on and much to learn from. Thank you!!
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I agreed wholeheartedly with you when you said that "Jewishness is neither a race, nor a religion. It is a soul identity". That is exactly how I feel. My mother is Jewish, but that does not make me any less Jewish than someone whose parents are both Jewish. I am what I am, and nothing can change what my soul wants. Thank you for your inspiring words and writing.
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It is hard enough to be Jewish in a nonjewish world. And that much harder when married to a nonjew. Though sometimes i wonder, when a jew you are married to cares nothing for judiasm, and even fights your being "too jewish" would it be better to be with a "sympathetic to your lifestyle" nonjew, than a Jew? Say in later life-no children involved. Probably better off just finding someone else who is Jewish.
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Hi there. I have been battling to understand what a Jew is. Is it a member of a racial group or a member of the Judaism religion, or both.
I know what a Catholic is. It is purely a member of the religion - no Catholic race exists.
And how did the Nazis identify the Jews 'cause all Holocaust Jews look white to me in all documentaries I have watched?
And how come Jews are the only people in the middle East who look European and the rest of the people in the region look middle Eastern?
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Hi
As a Norwegian i'm struggleing to understand something portrayed through several TV-shows. In shows like 'Nanny' a few years back, and most recently "The Big Bang Theory", there seems to be a big problem for the family of a jewish person if he/she dates a non-jewish person. Does this reflect reality over there, will a jewish person that dates a non-jew experience negativity about their choice of date from their family?
One thing is whats being described here, I don't see the racism in choosing a spouse that share your religious beliefs, that's just freedom of choice. It is discrimination yes, but in the same sense as discrimination based on appearance or interests when it comes to finding a spouse.
But, when it comes to parents trying to force their children into relationships only with people of a certain religion, it becomes more problematic imo. It is not up to parents to control or limit their childs lovelife, because it's the childs freedom of choice not the parent.
So, what i am wondering is:
Is there a tendency amongst jewish parents to frown upon their childrens choice of a non-jewish partner? And, if so, isn't this discrimination on a whole other level than the natural discrimination we all go through when choosing a spouse?
In the context of the US, where racial discrimination is such a tender subject, how can this type of discrimination be presented so naturally in the media, without causing more controversy?
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I was married to a nonJew who still after our divorce keeps a Kosher kitchen. It was not a perfect situation, but his attitude to Yiddishkeit was far preferable to that of my (born Jewish) mother, who did not come to my son;s bar mitzvah and will not enter my home because I keep a kosher kitchen. My older kids all identify as Jews, BTW.
My current partner is not halachically Jewish, but practices far more than all but the most Orthodox. His Dad's mom was Jewish. However has not been able to find anyone who will do a conversion because our plan is to leave the city (and big Jewish communities) and move to the country as it is better for our family. Not sure this is any better and we def don;t get support from any "community"
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To have a non-Jewish husband or a non-Religious husband is quite easy until you have children. Many mitzvot that seemed not so "important" become "very important". The more Jewish the house becomes, the more the relationship fails. Children suffer more because they don't have models to follow. They are not sure what to do, specially when my husband answers: "you and your mother have to do it; I'm not commanded to do it," when it comes to a mitzvah.
Divorce is always waiting on the back door.
If I knew what I know now when I was younger, I would have been more careful choosing a husband.
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George,
A person is considered Jewis if they were born to a Jewish parent(s). According to Jewish law, this must specifically be to a Jewish mother.
Judaism is the religion of the Jewish people. It is confusing for many Westerners, but being Jewish is belonging to both a people and a religion. In theory, a person can practice Judaism, and still not necessarily be considered "Jewish." To be considered Jewish, a person not born Jewish would need to go through a recognized conversion.
To answer your question regarding Hitler, the Nazis considered a person Jewish if they had at least one Jewish grandparent.
Hope this helps.
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If you had a choice would you rather marry a Jew that hated/didn't care about Judaism or a non-Jew that had no problem with you practising Judaism
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Attraction is something G-d has given us.
We sometimes cannot help who we are attracted to, and sometimes those people aren't Jews. So does this mean that we must limit ourselves and force ourselves to date only Jewish individuals, instead of going with what we truly want? Is it better to have a tumultuous marriage with a Jewish man when you could have a successful one with an Non-Jewish one? What you are doing is stereotyping. You are saying in order for there to be a truly Jewish family they must be male and jewish. This is not always true. I know plenty of intermarried families who are very successful. The children are all usually raised Jewish. Why is it important what the father believes, as long as the children grow up Jewish? As long as the children grow up Jewish and raise Jewish families themselves, there is no harm in intermarriage in this case. It is also important to get rid of stigmas within society about Jews, and instill open-mindedness and acceptance in our children.
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A Jew is a member of the Jewish people (secular definition) or someone with a Jewish soul (spiritual definition). It's the same thing. Merely believing in the Jewish faith does not make a soul Jewish. It's not like Catholicism. Jews do share a common ancestry just like Germans, Poles, Italians and most other peoples.
The Nazis identified Jews by using paperwork. Some Jews escaped because there was no paperwork to connect them to a Jewish ancestry and they had been Christians for generations. (Jews do also look different from Germans.)
Your third question is more complicated. First, not all middle-eastern Jews look European. In Israel you cannot usually tell a Jew from an Arab (if they are dressed the same). A Jew from Baghdad looks similar to an Arab or Assyrian from Baghdad. However, many non-Jewish middle-easterners also look very European, for example the Kurds and many Lebanese. Berbers (natives of North-Africa) look very European. And Assyrians look Spanish.
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I agree absolutely with you. Which word, which point. I like Beit Chabad !! Very inteligent and good sense always! tks
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She is discriminating based on religion which is bad in the work place but I guess ok in the marriage arena it seems... but if someone she would otherwise date expressed willingness to convert and she was still unwilling to date him, then it would smack of racism because she is treating judaism in a way similar to the caste system in india. Either you are born into it or you are not. In my opinion no one should be untouchable, and no one should be disqualified before given a chance.
It does add stress to proselytize and to date, but there are people out there eminently worth the effort.
Let us not forgot Abraham was pretty much alone in his religion and supported the conversion of many of those around him, including spouses.
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I wanted to add, I've had friends who were Unitarian who told me they'd only marry another Unitarian, others from South India, who'd only marry other Hindu Indians, etc. Thinking people want to marry someone who shares the values they want to pass on to their future family, and many times that is--as the rabbi points out--discriminating, while not discriminatory.
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It really depends on everyone's values, and whether Judaism will be the guiding force in the family.
My personal experience shows that the children often go their own way on the matter of faith.
It is not racist at all to want a Jewish spouse. I would say that in my case, I would not date Roman Church. I married a fellow Orangeman so all is well.
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The reason I want one is because he has been through the anti-Semitic experiences I have and sees it around us. He understands things that other men just don't get. Our mindset. I'm dating an Indian. He thinks we have nothing to worry about. He doesn't understand why I care about Israel so much and why I fear its destruction so much.
Others think it's JUST about the Holocaust. They don't know it's our whole history. I'd feel SAFER being with another Jew.
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It is certainly not racist to want a Jewish spouse--it is G-d's will that we marry our own. However, if IS racist for so-called "white" Jews to treat Jews of color as second-class Jews, assuming we are converts (not that this makes a difference), shunning us as marriage partners (or chasing after female Jews of color with the expectation--and audacity of a request--of sexual favors), pulling their children away from us as we walk down the street, etc. This is an even greater concern--and it must stop NOW!!!!
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I agree with this but would also like to point out that generally Jewish people are very hostile to non jews. Jewish people will complain about anti-semitism if they sense Any hostilities but yet they are incredibly hostile to others.
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To call this racism is to assume that we are a "race" Judaism is not a race. This is not racism. I am a convert, yet, I hope my children only choose to marry Jews. And should my husband and I not be together one day, I too would only (re)marry a Jew.
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I agree with your article and I wish more Jewish men felt that way. So many Jewish men out there don't care, and it makes it really hard to find a decent Jewish guy. If no one cares about raising a Jewish family eventually we will die out and we will have done the Nazis' work for them.
And for those people who think you can raise a Jewish family with an intermarried couple, I have seen examples of it working. But I have seem more examples of regret. Even my secular, Jewish friend who married a nice Atheist, non-Jew now has to deal with the fact that her husband won't let her send her kids to religious after-school. Yeah, it sounds really easy till you put it to the test.
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The response of Mr. Moss brought tears to my eyes. Racism is so difficult to discuss, I think in part because of the insufficiency of words. Black, white, chinese - such small words for such enormous variety of human beings. Jews, we are all one tribe, even if we fight amongst ourselves. We all love Shabbat.
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Jews have been the victims of persecution on and off for 3000 years. I personally want someone I absolutely know would be on my side. Imagine my horror when hearing my husband (now ex), who was not Jewish, say that Jews should stop whining about the holocaust. And he knew my parents were holocaust survivors. To have a good marriage, you should absolutely trust your spouse. She's totally justified for only accepting a Jewish husband.
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Re: "It's not racist, but it's discrimination"
You may marry a non-Jew if you like, but if you are a man (which I doubt you are) and you have a son with your values on mixed marriage, his children WILL NOT be Jewish according to Jewish law. So you see the problem here. I know it's not fair, but only woman can pass on Jewishness to their children. The Rabbis Of Old arbitrated this law. You will have a better chance jumping through the eye of a needle than getting an Orthodox reversal on an old traditional ruling. Besides, if you believe the kids with one Jewish parent grow up in a proper Jewish home I will personally, but respectfully disagree.
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First of all, Judaism is a religion, not a race. Secondly, meeting and marrying within ones faith means that there are a lot of common elements and that is often a good basis for a relationship. Don't we all want our daughters to meet a nice Jewish boy?
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One cannot be racist by wanting to marry a Jewish man,for Judaism is not a race. You however,may have a preference in terms of compatability.Therefor ,you need to ask him what makes him in his opinion Jewish, and yourself , why you wish to marry a Jewish man. If your answers coincide-you have a shidekh.
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My non Jewish husband has many demands on me because he does not believe in Judaism. He expects me to make his career a success.
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Is there a difference btw converts and non convert?
As I understand it is kind of a no no in the jewish faith to distinguish one and the other.For halakhic purposes they are identical is my understanding.
I may be wrong if so, someone please correct me.
This is not a response to anyone specific just a question
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It is absolutely not racist. There are many things that go into a decision to get involved with, & then marry someone. There are physical characteristics that influence us both consciously & subconsciously. Surely there is sexual chemistry, as well as an intense affection & interest in that person's well being. After that, there are things we all look for that have nothing to do with our natural instincts. I have noticed over the years in general, that Jewish men are more attentive, less aggressive, more articulate, & far more faithful, among many other things, than non-Jewish men. It was during this time that I also noticed that I've never been on the receiving end of bad feelings or negativity from Jewish people, male or female. To the woman who was questioned at work, your response should be "I am discriminating, but I am not a racist. We simply have different qualities we look for in the person we want to spend the rest of our lives with." No apologies necessary.
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It is difficult to find a jewish partner when you live in an area where there isn't a jewish community. Since I refuse to marry a non-Jew I remain singke.
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Being born a Jew, it’s the last reincarnation of our soul, in other eras, maybe I was a catholic, a Christian, a Muslim, etc, being a Jew is the hardest religion and you need to do your best as whatever religion you were born too! you need to know who are your ancestors, it’s hard to race your children and let them know they are Jewish or their mother or father are from a different race, you can't divide them, you can’t say they celebrate Christmas, or the Koran or the Torah and you don’t, you can’t teach them to discriminate their own mother or fathers race, and this is really complicated, and insecurity takes over. We are all the children of G-D, for some reason there is a separation of creeds and we must respect each and every one, and accept our own with love, respect & humility*Just a Note: Chabad NEVER descriminates and always helps the needy, My respects to all of them.
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A Jew is anyone with a Jewish mother.
A Jewish mother is Jewish if her mother is Jewish or if she went through a orthodox conversion.
A Jew can also be one who had an Orthodox conversion because he really wants to be a Jew, not because he wants to marry someone Jewish.
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I saw this post and I must comment and be honest about this topic...
As a fellow Jew but Jew of Color (Multicultural) I have always found it hard to find a Jewish man (most are European where I grew up) who wouldn't even think about the concept of dating me or his family accepting me and looking past my color or curly hair. Myself and all of my siblings ironically are all with non-Jews. I have only dated and preferred a spouse who is spiritual but follows no religious denomination.
I don't think you are wrong in your choice however, what if you meet a man who has all of the qualities you would look for in a spouse, but the man is non-denominational and perhaps would be looking to convert down the road?
Good Luck!
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I couldn't agree more with the author. If a Christian wants to have a Christian family, how could he or she think that that would be possible unless they marry another Christian. But, to the person who wrote the question: Feel flattered. The one who called you a racist only felt frustrated of not being able to date such a wonderful person as I suppose you must be just by being a Jew who wants to raise kids and keep a family according the the great Jewish traditions.
(From a non-Jewish man)
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I think those people who accused you of being a racist, are ignorant. Just simply smile and tell them that you are not racist, but rather you are just trying to preserve the continuation of your tribe. Because you and other jewish women are the only ones who can make it happen and to have children for the next generation.
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You are so right Rabbi Moss,
If I would have known when I was young, what I know now. That my ancestors were Sephardim, I would have pursued a marriage to one of my people. Unfortunately it was not so. I was deprived of that choice as well as other choices in my life that I regret now at 63. But I am glad that I never married again. I have been single since I was 29 years old, and do not regret that now, because if I would have married again to someone out of my faith I would be very unhappy now. This is all about what Hashem wants in our lives, and that is what I want more than anything else.
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This is a mal-quotation of R' Hirsch, who uses the expression:: Just another religion to state what Judaism should not be. The wording excluding Religion as a necessity for identification will include Einstein who called Judaism a community of a common future, though he called the Jewish god imaginary
and went to his grave an athesist. .
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Dating and marrying whomever you want is one's own personal choice .
It is not racist and discriminatory to want to date someone from your own religious background.
When we choose a mate we look for shared values. Is that discriminatory too?
Every day we make choices and decisions that make each of us unique.
Choosing who we want to spend the rest of our lives with is one of the most important decisions we will ever make.
So do not allow someone to make you feel your choice is discriminatory. It is your choice, not theirs.
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@True Racism Among the Jewish People and Intermarriage
So true and is the reason that I do not go to temple. If I go to a temple that is orthodox or conservative the members are all white and they try to be friendly but you know it's forced. I have learned not to go to temple there simply is no point.
All my life I knew I was a Jew, it is the way I feel most connected to G-d. I keep things simple, I read my daily Chabad and consult torah when I feel the need and I am thankful that I've realized that the way other Jews (orthodox and conservative) treat me is in no reflection of my relationship with G-d.
Sadly I too find most white Jews to be very raciest, but I also think it's because they do not have many people of color around to get to know and they chase away the people of color that come into their lives.
Quite a round robin
Perhaps Rabbi Moses you could address the treatment of white Jews toward non-white Jews sometime
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If the Jewish people you know are "generally...very hostile to non jews" you need to find other Jewish people to hang out with.
I know such people exist, but I hang out with the Jews that aren't like that- and they are the vast majority of Jews where I live. Just like if I were an atheist, I wouldn't hang out with the atheists that hate all religious people or Christians that hate all non-Christians.
If your 'general' sense of Jews is based on the one Jew in your work place here or there, who is the only Jew in the social situation- maybe the issue is less anti-semitism and hostility to others and more the insecurity of being alone and the pressure of 'representing.' I won't excuse idiotic behavior, but not knowing the circumstances, this is something I would put forward to consider. Were you interacting with someone who had not really interacted outside their faith community before- and just simply lacked the skills to handle themselves in a cross-cultural environment?
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I think you are wise. My companion wanted me to convert to Catholism.I could not because I am committed to my faith as a Jew. He now is basically atheist, and I long for that Spiritual connection that I have with Jewish people, and he does not respect my beliefs, I am in a sad situation...so stick to your criteria, you will be better off.
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Effort has to be exerted to protect the purity of Jewish faith and so is the family which is among the pillar of Jewish life. Statistics has it that intermarriages results to increased probability of non observance of Jewish practices and festival's . I'm not Jewish but I believe their practice is worth it.
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Maybe I'm lucky and my situation is extremely rare but I lead a Jewish life and my fiance is not a Jew. My daughter and I converted so I don't have the luxury of a built in Jewish family. We created our Jewish life and home. My fiance has welcomed every aspect of our Jewish life and home with open arms and is inspired by our faith and beliefs. We live the same life I see other Jewish couples and families around us living. As long as your honest and upfront and your partner doesn't have conflicting beliefs or isn't practicing another religion, you can have a Jewish life. He knew he was marrying a Jewish woman and would be living a Jewish life in a Jewish home. I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything because we'll both be in the crowd watching my daughter at her bat mitzvah and under the chuppah...just like she watched her mom and dad do.
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In the Bible it says don't be unequally yolked.
If your not on the same page re religion & you have children it would be a huge problem.
If you don't date non-believers you won't be tempted to marry one. If you marry someone who is your religion & ethnicity you have a better chance of staying married.
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Marrying a Jewish spouse is not being racist. I'm tired of people of the world labeling Judaism as a race. We gave the world monotheism. We are a religion, and I wish the people of the world would re-educate themselves and get out of their world of ignorance. Oh, and by the way, before World War II, we were known as Hebrews. Aron Moss is correct when he states," And there is no racial issue here. Jewishness is neither a race nor a religion. It is a soul identity."
Wake up world!
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It appears that the readers do not distinguish racism from discrimination. They also do not recognize the fact that a soul is an immaterial essence and therefore cannot have a name, religion or identity. Religion is a matter of HUMAN choice, no birth or genetics. E.g. one cannot chose to become French but one may choose to become Jewish. All the Halakhic decision pertaining to what is a Jew-are religiously motivated stipulations and therefore should remain within its religious boundaries.And to those who are ignorant of Modern History. The European looking Jews in the Middle East are primarily the descendants of Russian, Polish Lithuanian and Ukrainian immigrants( O'lim) to the State if Israel whose forefathers have converted in some point in History to Judaism.
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Halakha describes how a conversion works. It does not say it has to be orthodox.
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I answered that - and in retrospect would do it again. I do not however tolerate a "Jewish community" that declares you can only be a Jew if living in a city, regardless of what is best for your family.
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Race: a count of genes
Religion: How you decide to act (strategically).
It's not racist to be a religion-ist.
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No! The Rabbi is right. Only racist's attempt to reduce our Jewish religion to what is (to them) an easy name-calling spitefulness. Racists can only handle their own sense of worth by locking people into manageable groups for simple identification! Knowledge and understanding is an education that starts early. This is unfortunate. Too many who choose to call Jews a "Race" do so because it makes them feel better about themselves, their own social group or standing, and their place on G-d's earth!
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Marrying a Jew involves a lot more than skin color - it is a value system and a lifestyle as well. Would the person accuse a Protestant who wants to marry another Protestant a "racist"?
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why marry jewish has a great section on this. get it on birthright...
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It depands on why they want a Jewish spouse. To some it's a matter of ethnicity or culture, and that, though seemingly a good reason, would make us racist.
No matter how much we ran from it, and how rabbis have excused it by making anything that comes out of a Jewish woman Jewish, the truth is that what makes us Jewish is Hashem's choice of our ancestors at Sinai and his covenant with us. In everything else we are exactly the same: we have tzadikkim, normal people, murderers and paedophiles amongst us, just like any people group!
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Recently it was shown by research that the two person are more successful in their future marriage life just if they have the same political background and not religious background . Also race is not religion .So Someone can love a person without being racist .He or she can be called Religionist !
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I come from an orthodox background, yeshiva education, and 25 years ago I'd have agreed with what you said. But things are different. First of all, you can't draw a parallel between what GENDER you are and what RELIGION you are. You cannot change your gender (well, OK you can; I told you things have changed), and discriminating against people for the way they are born is wrong. In addition, there are "alternative" families that include 2 men or 2 women, and they are able to adopt and raise children, so theoretically there is no reason that Jewish gay/lesbian couples could not raise a Jewish child and have a Jewish home. Second of all, the word "discriminating" does not need to have a negative connotation. All it means is that you can tell the difference between 2 things. I can discriminate between men and women, I can discriminate between red and blue. But yes, if you want your own biological children, you need a member of the opposite sex.
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what if you already have a jewish family and jewish children and do not want any more children---is it then ok to be with someone who isn't jewish?
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Whenever this issue comes up, I don't say that I only date Jews or that I'll only marry a Jew-- at least not at the beginning of the conversation. From the start, I explain what I want in terms of my future-family life and how I need to stay true to myself while making dating-related decisions. (I want children and a spouse who love, care about, & live their Judaism like I do). Approaching the conversation like this usually leads to the other person coming to realize that it's important that I marry a Jew-- without me telling them. They tell me! ...It's not as quick as just saying "I only date Jews", but my approach seems to lead to understanding and acceptance, instead of accusations of prejudice.
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@jessica from toronto:
I am going to assume you are not a troll, and that you speak merely from ignorance. Thousands of people have converted to Judaism, in every stream of the faith. I personally know Jews-by-choice who affiliate with the Reform, Conservative and Ultra-Orthodox movements.
Many of the commenters wrote about children not being Jewish if their father is Jewish but their mother is not. This is not universally true. In Reform Judaism both matrilineal and patrilineal descent are recognized as the source of "Jewishness".
A good shabbos to all, including the non-Jewish readers here.
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It is not racist to want to marry only a Jew because Jews are not a race but a people. Anyone can join who accepts Torah. Catholics only marry within the faith, as do other people. Jews are no different.
However, it IS racist to only want to marry an Ashenazic Jew or a Sepharidic Jew. That is where racism could factor in to the equation. It is also classist to only want to marry someone who is wealthy and successful.
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My wife is Jewish, and I am happily married for forty years and fortune to have many Jewish grands. However, neither I nor my children did not said I want only a Jew to be my spouse. We loved our future Jewish spouses so much that we had to marry to be together forever. And we are. The real question is how to make you kids to love Jewish girls or boys, to love who they are and how they look and behave. This is a goal for Jewish education and environment that facilitate such a love.
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Well said! I have many wonderful Italian, Irish, etc. friends, Their families would also prefer that they marry the same. This is not racism (too harsh a word for ethnic and cultural pride). The US is not a melting pot. It is a tasty stew where you can appreciate you various friends---carrots, celery and onions separately. Tell your friend/co-worker to stop abusing the word racism.
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To the Jews:
I am sick and tired of your political correctness. Trying again and again to explain yourselves. Listen to what the Rabbi answered, and don't stand on your head so that everybody would love you.
To the non Jews:
You have some gall preaching to the Jews how they are racist and exclusive for wanting to marry Jews (by the way, it's not that simple. Jews are not only a religion. They are a people whether you like it or not). Jews have earned the right to want to marry their own kind. For centuries they have been reviled, demonized and murdered in the most barbaric ways. Antisemitism is alive and well even today, especially in Europe, (Norway!). If they intermarry, the Jews will disappear, which is happening here in the states. So Jews should marry only Jews and honest converts.
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I was brought up by wonderful european mother and father. they were orthodox and my grandparents were strictly observant. my memories of the love and shabbat celebrations are of utmost importance to me. i made an oath to my beloved father that i would never marry out of my precious jewish religion. i have guarded my personal life and relationships as best as i can, thanks to the almighty Hashem i am now being rewarded with several speciual jewish men to choose from. by the way if you stay close to your beautiful jewish heritage and observe the shabbat, that in itself is a kiddush Hashem.
The greatest wisdom quoted from the talmud is kindness. you will be blessed fyoursar above your wishes you will be welcomed in the world to come, and for sure you will have all your desires in this world as well. To have a successful marriage relationship you must both be of the same religion.
sincerely yours
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you go girl find your jewish mate
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Would the responses to this make a difference if the person posting the question were not Jewish? I wonder. . . . I am a non-Jewish woman married to a Jewish man. I did not specifically seek out a Jewish man to marry, but he is a wonderful person and we share values that our critical to our beliefs and lifestyle.
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So if a women wanted to marry a tall man,
if a women wanted to marry a smart man,
if a women wanted to marry a rich man,
if a women wanted to marry a good man ...
how are those desires fundamentally different from someone who wanted to marry a Jewish man?
Women have to set for themselves criteria.
The Panda bear female apparently uses the first male she finds as a standard. She then searches for a better male. If she stumbled into the best male at first, she's not going to reproduce. If she stumbled into the worse male at first, she will (most likely) reproduce. Females are also attracted to the "rare" male. But that's another story.
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Discriminating against a prospective partner based on race is racist. By definition.
Would it be racist to say that I don't date black women because they couldn't provide me with white children? Of course it would. Just as racist as not dating non-Jews because they can't provide Jewish children.
The problem is that by doing so I would be generalizing about all black people (or non Jews). I would be saying that I think all blacks (or non Jews, for example) are somehow substandard. It may be that many of them would not make me happy. It may be that statistically, I would likely be less happy with a black woman than a white woman. However, this does not mean that is true for all black women. Nor is it true for all non-Jews. Racism is wrong - and it is generalizing people based on race. Not bothering to judge people as individuals.
This is exactly what you are doing by refusing to date non-Jews. You are generalizing, and you are being racist.
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Only a Jew can understand the depth of conviction that exists in their soul to marry a Jew.
I am a convert - I converted (Conservative) when I married. My conversion was by choice and I converted for the family I would one day have. I believe it is b'shert. My Mother dated a Jewish man some 60 plus years ago and his family put an end to the relationship. Both the young man and my Mother were heart broken and I don't believe ever got over it. In fact I know they didn't.
I have been blessed with two beautiful children. We raised our children in a traditional home but not strictly observant. My son has chosen an Orthodox life and before leaving for a year in Israel to attend Yeshiva underwent his own conversion to Orthodoxy. He is where he should be and where Hashem meant for him to be. I believe to my toes that I was the vehicle for his soul. His story is only just beginning and at the tender age of 19 Baruch Hashem his whole life is before him.
Stick with your own!
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It's your choice, NO one had the right to tell you otherwise...the guy just felt upset BECAUSE he could not have you. Resentment, so he used the Race card. If you don't want to mix either, it's your choice, you shouldn't have to mix either, because by doing so you also loose your identity...but if you do then it's your choice.
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To Anonymous in London: your analogy is deeply flawed. For one thing one can be black AND Jewish.
But more to the point: if one chooses to marry someone of a particular religion it's because you expect to share a belief system and values with that person, and that, my friend, is totally independent of the color of one's skin, or the country or continent of one's birth.
And sharing values with your spouse is highly desirable, wouldn't you say? Why would you marry someone who disagrees with you on the most fundamental things, like how to raise children, or what constitutes ethical behavior?
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"Why is there such division between white and black jews. Its as if black jews are not seen as real Jews. Thats the impression that you give me. Answers Please!!!!!"
1. I think some Jews try to assimilate. If they can pass for white, it's only one generation to being a White Christian and safe in America. Hmm, I know a Christian family where 4 of the 5 kids can easily pass for white, but the 5th looks like he's from a mixed race. **The other four torture him.** Their grandfather is a black man. I'm sure the four grandchildren will reject him and pass themselves off as "whites". They're blond and light skinned; it will be easy.
2, I know a "white" Jew who married a "black" Jew. And their 3 out of 4 of the kids have married other Jews. One has a weight problem and is not married. It seems that some Jews are less interested in race and more interested in religion.
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The Nazis were the ones who said we were a race. We should be smart enough to know that our religious practices are not the result of behavior encoded in our DNA, but instead the result of free will, choice, and integrity. Also, race, as we perceive it, has no basis in genes. To clarify, there are 'black' tribes in Africa whose DNA codes have less in common with each other than they do with the DNA of 'white' Europeans.
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No. You have the right to choose who you marry. Deciding to date and marry only a Jewish man is not only your right, but it is what G-d ordained. G-d has a plan and part of His plan is in preserving all the 12 tribes of Judah. I believe this is a G-d given desire that is in you. Don't feel bad or guilty, be glad that you are following what G-d ordained. Lasty, if you love all your neighbors as yourself you are not a racist.
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Very true.
And besides, racism isn't necessarily wrong anyway. If you want your children to be like you, whether it's color, religion or other why should anyone else care?
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Why is racism wrong?
If you prioritize the color of a person's skin, texture of their hair, etc., over their other characteristics, that sends a message to your children, for your children will learn from your actions. Teaching your children that the color of skin is--to borrow the words of Dr. King--more important than the content of their character is a message not only of intolerance, but of superficiality. Is it more important that someone has straight hair and fair skin, or that they are loving, giving, and morally upright? There are plenty of loving, giving, and morally upright people of every race.
Moreover, if you are yourself Jewish, it is an essential mitzvah to love your fellow Jew. Jews come in all colors and races. They are born on every continent (excepting, perhaps, Antarctica!). By holding racist beliefs (and promoting them among your children) you will be putting a barrier between yourself and that requirement of Jewish law.
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I am not a very learned person. I only have Questions. Is Hashem Racist because He choose the Jewish people to be His people? Is His promises to our forefathers Racist? Is wanting a female as a wife Racist? Is wanting a particular woman as a wife Racist? Is marring a non - Jewish woman Racist? As for me I wish I had a Jewish wife.
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As someone pointed out above. Jews are not necessarily of one race? There are Jew from all racial backgrounds who are halachically Jewish.
Obviously, most Jews who choose Jewish spouses generally choose other Jews from a similar ethnicity and cultural background.
What's wrong with that?
Marriage is complicated enough, even in stable, loving relationships.
Of course, one can choose someone with a different ethnic background, as long as they are JEwish.
Judaism in itself is not a race, it is a way of life, a religion that involves religious practice as well as religious beliefs.
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Luck.
Luckily for everyone, the opinions expressed here are for your information only.
You cannot legally be racist in metering out jobs. Nevertheless, you can legally be racist in deciding where to eat.
You cannot be racist in selling merchandise.
You can be racist in buying merchandise.
You cannot be legally racist in doing some things; but you can be legally racist in doing other things.
Generally speaking, being racist doesn't help you. Hmm, if I wanted an assault team to attack at the equator, I might be biased towards blacks. Hmm, if I wanted to explore the North Pole, I might be biased towards whites. And now I note that the first trip to the North Pole included a black man. He did as well as anyone. Sorry, no info on the equator.
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If a white father refuses to allow his daughter to date black men, is that not racism regardless of the intentions behind them.
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i would hardly call it racist as don't we have a right to a choice as after all it's our lives we choose to live and therefore i think it's only fair to marry who we wish
thats why i don't like the idea of arranged marriages in some cultures, i feel that is wrong
as what if you don't love that person
but anyway i don't feel it's racist to choose who you want to fall in love with and marry
why should it be
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If the reason that the white father doesn't want his daughter to date a specific black man for a specific reason (not the color of his skin) that is not racism.
For argument's sake, let's change the races and religions. What if a black man says he doesn't want his daughter to date a particular white man because he has a criminal record? Or he follows a religion he doesn't agree with (make it Hinduism) and that his daughter doesn't espouse? Or the man shows signs he's a womanizer? Etc.
The father wouldn't be a racist. He'd be a father who is concerned for child.
On the other hand, a white Jewish father who doesn't let his Jewish daughter date a black Jewish man only because is black is violating the Torah commandment to love your fellow Jew.
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It seems that you do not distinguish between discrimination and racism. But in our case it is absolutely irrelevant, for Jews are neither a race nor a nationality--it is a religion that a member of any race or nationality may practice. Unlike a religion, nationality or race cannot be chosen. One therefore, should not feel responsible, proud or ashamed of his DNA code or place of birth. The discussion pertaining to 'marrying a non Jewish spouse' should be confined to a religious dialog structure only. Nevertheless this is the answer to your question: there is non division between black and white Jews. There is a division between black and white.You say 'Black Jews are not seen as real Jews' --- by whom I may ask. Get the concept of race out of this false equation( Judaism is a religion) and you will have a correct answer every time.
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Even if it were racist to marry a Jew, would I care? I do not pay too much attention to the world. I pay attention to the Torah. In general, don't pay attention to the ways of the world; pay attention to the ways of Torah.
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