I think G-d is also agnostic. He sits there perpetually wondering whether He exists or does not exist. Out of His questioning, a whole world is generated--with beings like us that go around asking, "Is this for real, or what?"
38 Comments Posted
Wonderful thought process. Reminds me (an agnostic of sorts) of what the rebbe said when a man told him he was an athiest - when the rebbe asked why, he replied that he could not accept that a god could allow the Holocaust. The rebbe replied to him that he was not an athiest - because an athiest would not have a problem with natural selection - the strong swallowing the weak. The fact that one sees this injustice and gets angry about it is proof that they believe in God. (Actually I think I read this in one of Rabbi Freeman's books.)
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Thanks for the great column! Both question and answer seem extremely thoughtful.
I'd just like to clarify the distinction made between atheism and agnosticism. They actually refer to different things: belief versus knowledge. Atheism is the lack of belief (in any deities) but agnosticism is the lack of knowledge of them. For example, one could be an agnostic theist (believing, but not knowing).
Also, atheism itself covers a wide spectrum - from absence of belief in deities ("weak atheism") to belief in the absence of deities ("strong atheism"). Most atheists are actually of the weak variety.
Wikipedia has a great article on it. Just search it for "atheism".
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"Is God an Agnostic" is a fascinating exploration. I just wished the Rabbi had explained how Halacha functions in helping God decide that He exists, or whether in fact Halacha has any such existential function at all!
Congratulations on printing this article.
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Thanks so much -- again -- for your wonderful Freeman's File. I'm sending it on to my proudly self-proclaimed atheist friends. It will either give them a little more insight and respect for the thought that goes into a religious existence, or it will make them throw the monitor across the room, exclaiming "Booshwah!" In any case, it will make me feel better!
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Fascinating article but it doesn't really address the question of how we know what G-d really wants. If we just substitute "meaning", "purpose" or "existence" for belief in G-d, and anyone that strives for world peace or harmony or happiness is automatically a believer, how do we determine what it is that G-d wants? I know the Jewish belief is to listen to what the Rabbis tell you and let them decide, but isn't that the real issue of the atheist, rather than the essential belief itself?
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" - As Rabbi Sholom Dovber of Lubavitch once put it, "The G‑d the atheist doesn't believe in, I don't believe in either." -"
who said this? wasn't it the previous Rebbe?
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question the existence of G-d, the true test of fate- is when we turn to prayer to ease our soural. It does release Endorphins in the brain, mediation and prayer.
We don't have to see G-d himself- to see the miracles every day. Like birth of a baby, a marriage, a sudden recovery from an illness, etc. We can be skeptics of this, but I try as hard as G-d tests me daily- to keep the fate- and not to judge others. I wish others would try that. And to stop talking negatively about one another too.
We must stop looking for perfection, instant gratification, and instant answers to difficult questions. And accept things as they are- and try to improve our response to them.
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I loved it, thanks for the article. I kinda got a little lost near the end, especially for an agnoistic Jew, but I get your drift. :)
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One thing: "and subtract all the negative energy"
Should read: "and add all the negative energy"
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I really enjoyed reading this!! Thank you so much for not giving a plain answer.
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Amazing and courageous analysis.
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In todays modern climate of Scientific research it seems impossible for an educated person to be a true atheist, for any scientist will tell you that we 'simply do not know' whether there is a Creator as a 'fact' or not. i.e. we cannot say for sure there is 'no Almighty' for certain.
Therefore we are left only with Agnosticism...and according to this article, we've just officially (consciously) joined the Almightys party. Anyone for a drink? Lechaim (to life)!! Want a picture 'WITH' Him??
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I read that article at my shabbis table last week, and my Uncle who usually rolls his eyes at everything religious, had a glimmer on his face that he was proud to be a Jew and associated which such deep and meaningful philosophy. Rabbi Freeman your stuff is top nitch keep it up.
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The actual meaning of the word "agnostic" is ignorant. What you lack is the experiential knowledge of the existence of G-d through a personal relationship with Him...
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I like it! If I were still teaching physics in Brooklyn I'd have my students read it when we learned quantum mechanics. Now I'm teaching chassidus in the holy land, so i'll have to find some funny weirdos who will appreciate it.
Thanks for ticking the brain cells.
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I really enjoyed this article as it is a subject matter I am frequently discussing with my 18 year old freshman at the UW son and I had just recently met Rabbi Tzvi at the celebration in New Jersey.
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I believe that G-d does not exist in this world if he cannot exist in people. He sustains it but does not exist in it. That is why G-d wants us to deny our ego's. Not to deny our uniqueness, or the fact we are each special. We are not unimportant, it's opposite. We are so important that we have the ability to make the almighty G-d exist or not. We have to make room within ourselves for G-d by denying our ego's.We have free will to choose if we want to be our own gods, then there is no room for the real G-d. If we could all do this, there would be no absence of good in this world and thus no evil. If there were no evil then we could exist in G-d's world in his Kingdom where he does truly exist and I believe He knows he exists. G-d is waiting for us to mature spiritually, to think beyond ourselves and foolish pride, That to me is the role as a Jew to allow the G-d of Israel to exist in ths world.
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I think the concept of G-d questioning his own existence is absurd. People only question G-d's existence because he does not exist in them. G-d is contiuously sustaining his creation, if he doubted himself, we would cease to exist.... We should not try equate G-d with human behaviors...
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But if G-d can only exist in us when we have no ego, that means there is a place where G-d cannot be, namely, in our egos--which He made!
There are a few articles on this site that address this issue. Do a search by "ego". See esp. "The Difficult Case of the Private Eye".
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Mr. Freeman, may I suggest to you that you expound on the subject of evil being the absence of good (which you touched upon here)?
Perhaps you can edify us with what some of the great Jewish sages had to say on the subject?
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There are quite a few articles that touch on this at this site. Just do a search (at this site) by keyword "evil".
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If G-d did not exist neither would man. What does He want? G-d said He wanted man to follow His commandments in order to obtain relationship with Him.
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Rabbi Freeman, I would respectfully like to defer from this statement here, if I may: The big problem with being an agnostic and then stating that G-d questions His own existence is that it leads to Jews abandoning their covenant. Yes I know, being Jewish in based more so on a birthright rather then just a profession of belief, and one can be a Jew without believing anything. Just the same, being agnostic and it's implications are negative influences on the Jewish community. I would venture to you, Rabbi, that G-d does not question his own existence, and generates the world from thus, but instead chooses to distance Himself from us, and thus generates the world. This is not necessarily because He is displeased with us (though that maybe the case at times), but because we need 'space' from each other sometimes. Rabbi, I would suggest to you that the world is like the rock that Moshe Rabbeneu hid behind as G-d was passing by. It was a mercy on him and on us.
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To Mr. Karp,
There are many ways to think about G_d. We can talk about Him as you have, in very anthropomorphic terms, like a parent making space for His child to grow. The Torah often speaks this way and many of my articles do, as well.
But we can also choose to speak of Him as something far beyond anything our mind can wrap itself around, as the very source of all existence, beyond either being or not being, choosing to be both at once. This you will see in how the Rebbe read Maimonides, both in his Book of Knowledge and in the Guide.
Jewish thought leaves room for many modes of meditation.
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As a converted Agnostic, I found subject article entertaining but not making much sense. I think the rabbi confuses the true definition of the agnositc position. Either a supreme entity exits or not. There is no way such an entity can be both. The agnostic position is that there is insufficient evidence available to humans to know one way or the other--period...
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Judaism, unlike the myriads of religions in the world, is not specifically based on what one believes. In most cases, it is based on a birthright, which makes one Jewish regardless of what beliefs are involved. You can be Jewish and be agnostic, and a rabbi can speculate on whether G-d chooses to doubt Himself. And in all fairness to Rabbi Freeman, Ray: Does it necessarily make anymore sense for you to convert to something which you, at the same time, acknowledge is based on insufficient evidence?
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I still don't know the answer to the original question. Can an agnostic be a good Jew? yes or no.
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I still don't know the answer to the original question. Can an agnostic be a good Jew? yes or no.
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My answer is that a Jewish agnostic is still a Jew. To doubt is human. But to be a "good Jew" you have to doubt your own doubts.
As Adin Steinsaltz once described his odyssey to orthodoxy, "I was such a skeptic, I became skeptical even of the skeptics!"
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The question of "free choice" CAN be made with perfect atheism. You are so Gd-intoxicated, like the baby discovering the wonders of this world, that you have difficulty imagining the world w/o Gd. But just assume, IF you can, that there is no Gd, and that there are 2 or more possible courses of action. Example: to get up at 4 am or 6 am or 8 am or 10 am. None of these needs to be any better than the others. None of them needs to be obedient to Gd's will or against Gd's will. Just choose the one that sppeals to you. Maybe you are a morning person and choose 4am. Maybe you stayed up late and choose 10 am. Whatever. You can do this in perfect atheistic confidence.
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It seems to me that if God is, then there is only one possible reason for existence as we see and experience it.
It comes down to the only possible question that is worthy of deity and does not imply an insufficiency or need by God.
The question: Who or what am I?
Existence is the mirror wherein the Divine explores itself.
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Yes, that works very well.
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Rabbi Tzvi, I wish that more "religious" people were even half as smart as you seem to be! I do sympathize with Thomas and Keith, 'cause describing G-d as "wondering" seems like a really weird anthropomorphism. Nonetheless, this is a brilliant article. I wonder what atheist philosphers would make of your articles. A lot of people (myself included sometimes) regard religion as a bunch of backwards, irrational, superstitious mumbo-jumbo, but what if they were to explore a website such as this? I guess some would dismiss your interpretations as crazy, but others (like myself) might find them refreshing and inspiring. Elsewhere at this website, I posted to another poster not to worry so much about whether G-d "exists" or not -- just be grateful that G-d allowed you to exist.
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As for leaving room for us to grow: this suggests thinking of Gd as having, within Gdself, a potential space which Gd actualizes, just as the potential space of the womb is actualized when she is pregnant. Ie, speaking anthropomorphically, Gd can be thought of as pregnant with the universe. The Torah actually uses this metaphor, indirectly, when Moshe Rabbenu asks HaShem whether he is the one who conceived all this people. And later we are told that Moshe is the"husband of Gd" (ish Ke lo kim), a translation validated in at least two midrashim. And HaShem uses the pregnancy metaphor as well, saying, "I will cry out like a woman in labor"
Since the metaphor is validin the Tanach and in the midrashim, the path whereby the Divine Plenty reaches us can be thought of as the umbillical cord.
Is the baby aware of the mother? Hm. The baby hears the mother's heartbeat, without knowing what it is. To the baby, that heartbeat is the whole universe. What heartbeat do we "hear"?
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Rav Freeman, you've still let Agnes off too easily! -- though perhaps there was no choice as we'll see.
For of course G-d must decide upon His own agnosticism as well. What is to be in category A' -- that which is paradoxical, and category B' -- that which is not. Though to look here is to go beyond the mask of Echad, past E-n Sof, so-to-speak, beyond where even the concept of same, different, and category cease.
The Arizal hints to it, and Rav Yitzchak Ginsburgh has so hinted (had E-n Sof been truly absolute, would it not be at least, "Without Beginning" rather than 'Without End"?) As any notion of "us" disappears in Echad, this discussion would take us into dangerously perilous waters. The wise have already hinted and stopped, so I guess we certainly should.
So after all you've done very well again Rav Freeman -- going as far as we and Agnes, if not the subject, can be taken.
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A fractal equation exists and is complete whether it is instantiated or not. Beginning is meaningless vis-a-vis the equation. It only has meaning from a perspective that is local and bounded within the limits of the instantiation of the equation, (as we are within the universe.)
Ironically, no instantiation need ever actually occur. The fractal equation contains all that is possible to unfold via instantiation. Hence without beginning, all that is, is resident and bounded by an equation.
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Wow!
What a great handle!
Wish I'd taken it first! Well done!
I'm Jaki, which could be a nickname for Jakheved or for Jakob or for John which is English for Jean and so it could be a nickname also for Jeanne.
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Why this essay keeps me off the Jewish "bus" --
Essayist Tsvi Freeman states:
"G‑d came up with the idea that some things would exist and others would not. Call it A and B. Then He had to determine whether He would be ... [in] category A or B."
To create an idea or to make a decision, the idea-creator must first already exist. (Non-existent people -- or non-existent "anything else"s -- never have an idea or a decision. They don't think or decide anything, because they don't exist.)
To decide whether /A/ to exist or /B/ not to exist, the decider must exist (for at least long enough to make that decision). The idea of a non-existent decider contradicts itself, like the idea of a triangular sphere.
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