The debate continues, but the debaters have changed
I follow the Halakha to some extent (put on tefillin, say the shma twice a day, etc) but am also convinced that prevailing modern views are substantially correct.
In some ways, the certitude of those who can accept the Torah as being literally true, is something to be envied. Certainly, I have no wish to convert those who believe it.
To me, the practice of Judaism is more akin to practicing the martial arts or Japanese tea ceremony than something where an actual intelligent case can be made.
Suggesting that there is a debate between Torah and Science seems silly. The literal Torah arguments I've read here are negative, convoluted and feeble. If there was any substance to them, these ideas should be able to be expressed clearly.
What is disturbing is that the anti "Science" arguments can approach bearing false witness. More disturbing is the apparent Chabad alliance with gentile creationists; these are not good people.
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I agree that there is really no such thing as the science/torah debate.
In a sense, this is because they speak different languages. Science speaks to the rational cold mind where the only thing which exists is that which I can sense in the here and now.
On the other hand, torah is about reaching out of our reality to that which is beyond; to the place which does not exist to science and where science does not exist.
Scientific proofs are here today, gone tomorrow. We cannot see G-d today but we know that He will exist forever.
In that way, torah is too huge for science to pick up on just like a simple camera cannot capture the earth on which the photographer is standing.
Obviously this is not because the earth does not exist, but becuase the camera has a limited scope.
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I appreciate the comment.
Sometimes I can be abrasive, often without actually intending it, and hope nobody was offended. I regret using the word feeble.
The Rebbe's writings on this subject are models of clarity and simplicity. They are not easy to refute.
Musicians say one can often judge the skill of a musician after hearing a single note.
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Joseph,
Now who's being judgmental and bearing false witness??
If you can state your views without emotionally charged, questionably true statements, perhaps someone will listen.
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I didn't accuse anyone of bearing false witness; my point was that some of the pro-Torah arguments presented here are so flimsy that it is hard to believe that their proponents can be convinced of their truth. Perhaps, I've misunderstood the commandment.
I understand Dr. Greene's argument that Halakha is more important than accepting the literal truth of the Torah and sort of agree. I also agree that "liberal" rabbis can be twitchy.
There is overwheklming evidence that the Torah was not given to Moses by G-d. There are numerous books that explain this better than me.
The atheism section is conventiently located next to Judaism at Borders. Some may be disappointed by the lack of attention to quantum mechanics.
My only original contribution to the discussion might be to point out the lack of comment here on the disciplines of Biblical Studies and Ancient History of Israel. The scholars in this field seem to be generally religious, knowledgeable, and easy to understand.
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The world of "I" and "it" is significantly and essentially different from the world of "I" and "Thou". One is the realm of science and the other the realm of Religion, Morality, Art, Literature and filled with people.
My father raised me to be an Aristotelian complete with the law of the excluded middle [either A or ~A {not A}]. Take a moment think about your relationships. Do you without reservation love your wife? If you can say yes you are either playing as fast and loose with meaning or a far better man than I. My point is that you both love and do not love your spouse. Because this is not Science. More later after I know I'm not just singing in an empty room.
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Dear Mr. Friedman, please by all means provide us with your irrefutable "Proof" that Moshe Rabbenu did NOT write the Torah as you put it.
Quite frankly if that is the case and all the Rabbium since the time of Moses have it all wrong, and lied to us, then I'd shave, and end Shabbas adherence, because if what you state is true, then all of Torah and Yiddishkeit is a sham.
I'll wager however, that some atheist, or politheist with an axe to grind against Torah observance wrote the drivel that evidently convinced you. Maybe you needed some just this EXCUSE to distance yourself from Torah adherence and conveniently found it.
By all means, please give us a list of those tomes with the irrefutable evidence.
Moshe Emes, Torah Emes.
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George, your request reminds me of the convert who asked Rabbis Shammai and Hillel to explain the entire Torah while standing on one leg.
I find your side of the wager puzzling as you are saying that you would abandon the faith of your parents. Do you seriously believe that that would please me?
There is abundant orthodox Jewish opinion supporting multiple authors of the Torah. including R. Yochanan (Gitin 60a) Ibn ben-Ezra, R. Joseph ben Isaac (Bekhor Shor) R. Hezekiah ben Manoah (the Hizkuni), Rabbi Yosef Bonfils.
I'm sorry that your emotions got the better of you and that you refer to these people as atheists or polytheists.
I apologize if the messages, posted three years ago, offended you.
Rereading the article today,it seems incoherent now and not as annoying as I found it three years ago.
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