Can a Jew believe in Jesus?

I have wanted, for a long time, to congratulate you on your post saying we already ARE saved, because we have G-d's covenant. I love you so much for saying that. G-d bless you, my dear. By the way, it was a Catholic girl who got me to go back to Judaism and she, too, told me that my religion was stolen from me when I became Christian at the age of 21. She actually went WITH me to Chabad for many weeks until I felt comfortable going back.

People who are being "missionaries" to Jewish people to convert them are sometimes anti-semitic and sometimes not. Just the fact that they want to "help" Jewish people "achieve" what they consider as a higher spiritual plane shows ignorance and not hatred. Unless they come out and say that we are Christ killers, devils, etc., they are not being anti-semitic. They are ignorantly thinking they are helping us. ignorant. Not hatred. Ignorance does lead to some Jews leaving our beliefs, but does not kill them. Please don't confuse people trying to convert us (with no negative consequences if we refuse) with people who did Pogroms or who kill if you don't change. This is not the same as an inquisition or holocaust through murder of the body. Will it murder our spirit? It can do that, but because it is not meant to do it, we can not label being a missionary as being anti-semitic. The practice, and not the person doing it, might be considered that way by us emotionally, only.

...dont understand the point of your comment, please explain- I never said or suggested that a Jew who believes in other religions is not a Jew. I said that for a Jew to believe in something other than the One Creator is Idolatry-did not make that up-is Halacha (Jewish Law).

Uri Yitzchak, whether or not it is idolatry, a Jew is still a Jew if he believes in Jesus; however, you might then call him a Jew who believes in idolatry, if that is your definition. Remember, even the Jews in the desert who made golden calves were still considered Jews. Right? A rabbi once said, on this site, mind you, that if you dunk an elephant into water, when he comes out, he is still an elephant.

"The answer is that because the people doing it think they are doing something HELPFUL to Jews, then their MOTIVES are not anti-semitic. It's different from the KKK and skinheads, because those people try to KILL or harm us."

Karen, I coudn't care less about their motives. Their Actions lead to the same result.

To believe in anyone or anything other than The One, Only and Indivisible G-D Who revealed Himself to the Jewish People on Mount Sinai is just plain and simple Idolatry.

The answer is that because the people doing it think they are doing something HELPFUL to Jews, then their MOTIVES are not anti-semitic. It's different from the KKK and skinheads, because those people try to KILL or harm us. The end result would be, of course, in the destruction of how Jewish people see themselves as a tribe. It is the same with intermarriage. In and of itself, it's not ant-semitic because of the motives of the individuals (to help and not harm). However, yes, in the end, it is possible that the children will lose all knowledge of being Jewish down through the generations. In that way, we can be decimated. So, no, do not think that people who try to convert us are anti-semites. They actually do believe they are doing this out of love for Jewish people. However, they don't know the harm they are doing in the long run. It is said that Christians get extra "stars" in their crowns in heaven for converting Jews, because that will hasten the "second coming" of Christ.

Of course, a Jew CAN do anything, including believe that the moon is made of green cheese. That being said, the main reason for the question is because Jews believe in ONE G-d. The G-d that Jews believe in is commonly called by Christians, "The Father", which is the invisible G-d who is like the wind, in that we can feel Him, but not see him. To our Christian bloggers on this site, please understand that 1) we have different ideas about what is "sin" than you do, as well as different ideas about the Devil, Hell, what is the consequence of sin, etc., which ties into why we don't believe "The Gospel", which is supposedly the "Good News" that Jesus died to "save" us from our sins, which to you guys is DEATH. 2) We have the same major ideas as Jesus because Jesus was Jewish, and his "preaching" was as a rabbi, since Christianity was not a religion at the time of his life. In fact, he had a bar mitzvah (remember your new testament stated he "spoke" in the Temple?) So, we CAN. It's HARD.

Do we really value clear thinking>? Is it possible in a finite body to suspend all judgement and every prejudice we learned as we came from the womb? How do we simply let go of all pre determined ideas?
Let's not forget the many Jews who were hidden and thereby saved fr the Nazis by Christians who were serious about their faith.

I know that Hashem cannot be so small as to be in a wafer. and I am secure enough in my faith to at least study a little about other religions.

I value the truth. But who has the truth?

how could any one of us give up our identity as jews? We dont have to.
It is true that much horror and jewish blood has been shed in that name.
So turn the tables. Educate that Christian who comes up to you.
tell him how your G-d is so High and so Huge that he cannot be contained in a word or a church or a symbol, how your soul can open to Him anywhere even if we go to the moon or any galaxy. Educate.

Just an attack ad hominem.

Is it anti-Semitism for a person to teach others that in Judaism it's OK to believe in Jesus? Two men recently in my area are doing just that, one as a teacher through a book and website; the other as a counselor through website. This is disturbing to me. They call themselves "Messianic Judaism" and are founded and funded by Evangelical Christian group that proselytizes.

As a Christian I find these comments interesting. It seems to be about trying to define Christianity and Judaism. This is most confusing. There are so many different types of "Christians" that it is nearly impossible for me to define Christianity as a whole. One of the most famous groups that call themselves Christian are a mixture of paganism, secularism, and strange traditions that are foreign to the Christian scriptures. On the other hand if I wanted to convert to Judaism this would be very confusing to me. From what I read you can believe almost nothing to almost anything as long as you agree to few things. If I ever were to convert, I believe I would have to join up with the Hasidics(I hope I said that right). They seem to take what they believe seriously and practice what they believe fervently. I do agree that if a Jew converts to Christianity they can't say I am Jewish in the true sense of the word.

As always very nice article but this time not decisive enough. I cannot emphasize enough how serious a topic this is! As a Catholic, a Jew doesn't need Jesus, he already has a covenant with the Almighty that is everlasting! If you accept anything else you basically deny the bond between you and the Almighty that is already there and given to you directly from Him. Nothing worse than that! Don't let these guys fool you. They will try to baptise you. Do not leave your covenant. It was given to you directly from the Almighty, so who cares what anyone on this earth says about being "saved"? You ARE saved! People, if you see one of them or if anyone of them tries to talk with you ignore them and move on and do not listen to them!

There's no disagreeing that we should not believe in Jesus, but respecting a fellow human being's beliefs is something we can believe in. Sarcastic remarks, and pointing out flaws in someone's religion will not bring any Jew closer to Hashem. Let's as a community not be so quick to judge others, and instead look to making the man in the mirror a better person. Shalom.

I agree with you that we need consider ourselves as having a personal relationship with G-d and talking to him, not only during the times when we pray from the siddur, but all day. Those ideas are not original to xtianity. They are ideas imparted to us from G-d, through the Torah and our traditions.

Dvorah, according to the book, those who are doing what they know to do, to the best of their ability are not separated from Creator. All good comes from Creator. The thing is, just as in every system of belief, there are those who stick closer to the founding, "holy book"s and those who make things up as they go along. Depends on the culture and the individual.

Besides, another Xian principle is lack of judgment. ... it may raise eyebrows of observers these days, but the book hasn't changed. And there are millions whose heart is fully about Creator. Not everyone arrives at the same conclusion.

I'm not really sure how this conversation has gotten to be about Xian theology, but fact is, unless someone brings them something better, the non-Jew can practice whatever religion makes sense to him.

Finally. I said it is in the wording of the question, that depends on the answer. CAN Jews believe in JC? Yes. SHOULD they? No. We finally agree. On the other hand, there are some philosophical ideas promoted by Xtianity that I do like, still. Such as, knowing G-d in a personal way and being able to talk to Him in regular conversational talk instead of relying on memorized or printed prayers. Those things are ideas I really do like.

It's patronizing to make that claim publicly. If you know me, then email me.

My intentions are to stick to the facts, let the chips fall where they may. Nice or mean -- irrelevant to me on this subject.

Yes, xtians are friendly. They learned it doesn't get them too far to use hostility. There is an agenda behind that friendliness, even if they are not consciously aware of it.

As far as xtian tourism, and support for Israel etc...granted. Again though, there is an agenda behind it, and a price the Jewish community in Israel is paying for that in the form of xtian missionary work.

Another huge problem is folks who are not eligible under the Law of Return using funds intended for those who are eligible in order to move there, establish xtian congregations as a beachhead for more missionary efforts. That missionary work breaks up Jewish families where is succeeds.

Back to the topic, can Jews believe in JC? Yes. Should they? No. The price is unbearably high, with no payback.

The Once Saved, always Saved is a manufactured idea by some people who want to build a religion and their own church. many unfortunatley have build up their egos and lined their pockets
but i prefer to look at the ways we do not differ from our Christina brethren.
If there were no Catholics or Episcolpalians or Mormons even the world woudl be a darker place.
We Jews are hjere to bring the fragments back to order and Light.
as it were. In a manner of speaking --well, so if these groups at least keep 7 of the Noahide laws and try to bring a graceful & civilized way to the planet--they dod do a lot fo charity and help others all over the world.
Let's not forget Evangelical groups are often a best friend to Israel and keep tourism healthy.
we need each other. So corraling them and using extremem examples is harsh.
and i winced when I read the above as I know this writer and she doe not wish to be mean spirited
We don't really know who will go where when we die' do we
Love they neighbor

According to the "once saved, always saved" folks, JC fixes everything. The xtian might "get to heaven" with just the figurative clothes on his back...but he'll get there.

Then there's the debate about the old Jew who was faithful to the Torah, scrupulously observant, served G-d and others -- all of it his whole life. Of course, he didn't believe in JC -- VS. the SS officer who beat & tortured innocent men, women and children to death with glee. Where in eternity does each end up, respectively speaking?

9 times out of 10, a xtian will say tell you the unthinkable...the SS guy gets to go to paradise (with just the clothes on his back), and according to them, the old Jew does not -- he burns!! (G-d forbid)

According to that view, and it is a widespread view within xtianity, "consequences" consist of a slap on the wrist. This life might be less than optimal, but paradise for the xtian? Good to go.

Insanity.

Your statement is about beliefs. A feeling is an emotion, not a belief.

"Xtianity pretends there are no consequences, or minimal consequences, for one's actions or lack thereof. Is that the "vacation" you refer to?"

Well, this isn't true. That religion actually proposes dire consequences for actions. You reap what you sew type things. Some denominations claim there is eternal burning, some say there is permanent, destruction of the body/soul. There is no such thing as consequence-free xtianity. Even the "once saved, always saved" ppl threaten ppl with hell.

You are absolutely correct. There is a feeling that there are no consequences, but the reality is, there are always consequences to all our actions, and all our beliefs.

Is in the brain. There is a sense of peace, calm, and wellness, a feeling of purity and holiness. The "born again" feeling is of being washed free of all the past. It's a feeling. Not anything to do with consequences. Just in the brain. Some people miraculously are able to stop addictions immediately just by having this "brain vacation". Like I said, if you stay there too long, you start hating yourself if you are Jewish.

Xtianity pretends there are no consequences, or minimal consequences, for one's actions or lack thereof. Is that the "vacation" you refer to?

The thing is, there are consequences....and when we behave as if there aren't the ramifications can last for generations.

When a Jew becomes a Christian, it's like a vacation spot. It may be nice to visit, but disastrous to live there. It does lead to all sorts of self hatred and hatred for your own sense of ancestry, as well as shame and guilt. And, embarrassment. Take it from me. It helped me out in a very terrible time, but staying too long did a negative number on my psyche.

I have to agree that the law is certainly NOT bondage, but as I read through the Christian NT, it seems that, while most Christians are confused, the law is not actually taught against, but affirmed. I suspect that, like the OT, the NT was translated in such a way to be intentionally deceiving- removing the obligation to obey the law, while coming against the lawless- sorry, but how can one be lawless if there is no law? And how can one be a "sinner" if there is no standard by which to judge truth and right living?
As far as penalty of sin being death, I think that they are referring to the eventual death of the physical body, which perhaps was not the original design for Adam and Eve given their longevity in comparison to ours. Gift of life being a spiritual life, not physical. Perhaps it means the same for death?
I realize that my questions may be naive, but I am still learning. I want very much to understand the scripture, and believe that Christians have been grossly mislead.

Having to follow the "tedious" 613 laws, such as helping to heal the world, to feed your animals before you feed yourself? From being "under" the law, as if we are the lowest creatures on the earth? Having a "yoke" around our shoulders causing us to be slaves to the Torah?

As I said before, that is a blatant lie. There are various TYPES of sins, with various consequences and ways to overcome the sins, such as sacrificing animals to be used in a barbecue at the Temple. and monetary fines, etc. Why would a whole group of people be said to have a death penalty? Please explain the logic. Also, I defy you to explain what sin they are speaking of. There has never been an answer to this question in any Christian church. We, as Jews, don't believe in the Catholic idea of "original sin", as in babies are brought into this world through sex by their parents and that was a sin? Oh, no.

Many teachings are attributed to Jesus. Some may come from Jewish teachings, many not. A lot of people teach Jewish concepts, some consciously and some unknowingly. What Jesus may have taught is not the central concern.

We are all free agents and can do what we choose. We would do well to keep in mind that there are consequences to our choices. In order to know what the debate is about I prefer to frame the question as follows: Is it acceptable within the confines of Judaism for a Jew to believe in Jesus?

The whole premise of Xtianity is that Jesus was/is the hoped for Jewish messiah. But when one studies what the qualifications are for "the" Messiah...meaning Messiah ben David, Jesus simply doesn't, nor will he ever qualify. In order to understand how manifestly unqualified he is, one has to study the Hebrew Scriptures in the form of a TaNaKh (Hebrew w/English translation) because the Xtian OT has been altered to fit the Xtian NT in order to make their case seem more compelling.

He said he came not to the righteous, but to the sinners. First, This is not a Jewish concept of "being" a sinner. One can sin, perhaps often, and not be considered a sinner by G-d. Sure, there were people who said they were sinners, but that is just low self esteem talking. The scriptures state what are the sins and what are the consequences for each kind of sin. Very few sins had death as a consequence, by the way. The NT says that our scriptures say if you break one law, you've broken them all. That is a blatant lie. No where in the Holy Scriptures does it say that! It's a lie. Also, if all Jews had a death sentence for sinning, there would be no Jews on the earth. G-d didn't come to the sinners only. Go-d is for everyone. Any person who says they are G-d and only came for one group of people is misrepresenting what G-d is about. By the way, it says JC is the same yesterday, today and forever? Means he still heals blindness by spitting in someone's eyes.

Can a Jew believe in Jesus? It seems that a lot of what was written in the "New Testament" came straight out of the Talmud, although the whole notion of eating flesh or drinking blood, spiritually or literally is obviously an issue. I am just trying to understand, so please bear with me. Other than the ideas of canibalism, which I don't think was meant literally, and I admittedly do not understand, did Jesus say anything else which contradicted Judaism?

Calling the attempt to convert Jews to Xtianity a "nagging campaign". Hahaha. Thanks for making me smile! I needed that today!

To the coward who posted anonymously, show me ONE example of where any mention of Jesus outside of their books exists. You're messing with the wrong gal; do you think I just make things up from thin air? Of COURSE Gentiles can read other languages. I have nothing against Gentiles, Christian or otherwise. As long as people obey the Seven Noahide Laws (Google it) everyone has just as much right to the world to come as any Jew. We don't have the keys to heaven.
If you are going to challenge someone, at least have the common courtesy of giving your name.

it is a huge part of Xtianity to discuss and worship the fact that the human, Jesus, was killed as a human sacrifice. Jews don't believe in human sacrifices. When it says that J said to drink the wine because it is his blood, that could not have happened because Jews do not drink blood. Not physically and not spiritually. Where it says eat the bread because it's his body, Jews do not do cannibalism either physically or spiritually. So, if J was Jewish and a Rabbi, he would not have said those things. But, the whole idea of the gospel being good news that G-d came to earth as a man and then wanted to be killed as a human sacrifice is not true or appropriate or accepted in Jewish law. The whole idea of the Messiah is different from a "Savior". In fact, calling Jesus a savior refers to his saving people from having to be Jewish or follow any of the 613 laws, some of which are positive ones!

To SA in DC:

You can't use the outrage Jews express towards Xtians (and their 2000 year old nagging campaign) as an excuse to shut off your brain. Well, you can, but I doubt it will wash in the end. It certainly won't move you forward in your quest for Truth.

I suggest you do your own independent research. Figure out what Judaism is from a traditional Jewish perspective. Visit a Chabad center or another outreach event. They are everywhere and they are free if you can't afford to pay.

You might be surprised at the positive emphasis when it is clear you are open-minded stop trying to convince them of the error of their ways long enough to really hear their message.

When you say "farther". that means you are already far away from Judaism and this will push you farther? I take it from your reading the posts that you were looking for some answer that would assuage your mixed feelings. I can only remind you that any Rabbi is only human and each one is different. Some are kind and loving, and I have seen some be strict, stern and stoic in their attitudes and personalities. You can't blame all of Judaism on a personality. What I believe is going on is that you are identifying with being Jewish and yet are still in a Christian church. This is an angst in your heart in some ways. I understand. I was Jewish in a Christian church for many decades. Suggestion: just don't go to Easter services. They will push you TOWARD Judaism in your defense of Jews and realization that there is widespread generalization towards the Jews "killing Christ". Depends on what sect you're in how volatile they get.

I wish RMoss had taken the question seriously and explained exactly why a Jew's believing in Jesus constitutes "a suspension in logic and clear thinking," rather than merely engage the Christian missionaries in their turf wars.

I understand that he and many other Jews take (rightful?) umbrage at the interference of Christians in Judaism, and at Christian missionary efforts. However, as a Jew raised in the Christian church, this kind of angry and borderline hateful response only adds to my confusion, and ultimately pushes me farther away from Judaism.

Anonymous wrote " I only stated factually, that my religion has only one [however great] doctrinal divergeance from traditional Judaism. "' and "Dvorah, it is relevant that you have managed to sustain a faulty understanding of my original statement regarding similarity of beliefs. It referred to me, my religion and not Christianity, whole or in part. "

I haven't misunderstood. Until you choose to reveal what it is you do believe, I choose not to respond directly, but to continue the discussion at hand...which is "Can a Jew believe in Jesus?" -- the Jewish definition of a Jew practicing Xtianity.

You have made specific statements on where the differences between Judaism and Xtianity lay...and I have responded to those statements.

That in the beginning, Catholicism was Judaism but broke away from it. I suppose that is what they are being taught nowadays.

Beverly, there are actually independent mentions of this person through various historical documents; mentions of his death, philosophy and followers.

If you intend to draw conclusions, it is helpful to preface them with personal research.

Dvorah, it is relevant that you have managed to sustain a faulty understanding of my original statement regarding similarity of beliefs. It referred to me, my religion and not Christianity, whole or in part.

Also, gentiles can study in original languages.

No one will be without fault in the development of personal ideas. They can only connect themselves as best as they can to reliable centers of information and to Creator.

Question: We know that Jesus was not his name; it was the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word for Joshua. IF such a person existed and IF he was so influential...why are there no mentions of him outside of the Christian books?

His entire life is seeped in pagan mythology.

Many others were supposedly born of a virgin, pulled off some "miracles," was killed and then rose from the dead. There are no mentions of those people except in mythology.

I'll let you draw your own conclusions.

In English to compare it to the Xtian version of the old testament. Is there such a version of the TaNaKh (English)? Where would I find one?

Anonymous from Chicago is claiming the primary difference between Judaism and Christianity is the question of JC.

I contend that the two religious/faith systems are more significantly different. Christians think they are so similar because they share much common Scripture, thus the vocabulary is similar. They both have an emphasis on a person called "messiah", though Christianity emphasizes the importance of their messiah much more than does Judaism.

Here's the rub: Christianity defines this common vocabulary differently than does Judaism. Furthermore, the Christian translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, which they have dubbed the Old Testament, is mistranslated in many key passages, as well as many passages being misappropriated, (or even made up!! google yankelleknay at wordpress.com - my husband posted about this) typically where the claim is made that it points to JC.

Both faith systems are oriented towards ethical behavior, due to the prominent treatment of the "Big Ten".

There are so many debates as to which set of myths came first, was the JC story borrowed from pagan beliefs or the other way around...I could spend hours and hours reading them all. Not interested.

The JC story is not rooted in the Hebrew Scriptures. The OT is not the TaNaKh...it is a Christian translation and mistranslation of the Hebrew Scriptures and as such, it is misleading. Verses are taken out of context and/or changed in order to make some parts of the TaNaKh seem like it supports the stories in the NT.

Claiming the Jewish messiah must atone for sins via human sacrifice, be buried for 3 days and resurrected simply doesn't match up with the TaNaKh's concept of the Messiah's purpose, qualifications, identity.

The NT is not a part of the Jewish Bible and as such, we don't rely on it.

What are you two talking about? This conversation is going way over my head. Can you please simplify it?

Yes, that's what I thought u meant when u said it didn't evolve. I'm glad u clarified it. ;)

Now, what I meant by 'terms', wasn't in relation to language. More specifically, I meant 'tenets'. I was thinking in terms of contracts, I guess.

I think we agree on most of this.

It's interesting you brought up Greek Mythology, bc although there was a representation of such characters in many myths, the characters never included such an event as a resurrection until well into the 2nd century, which is only one way Greek mythology differs from any xtian parallels. None of the myths were historical figures, either.

Service and connection with the Creator through practice is also a part of any Biblically-based Christianity. If those ideals aren't central to the belief, it isn't real.

It seems most often that anyone who chooses to do well will find a way to do it. That includes people who see the world differently than we do. Sometimes people are wrong because they don't know how to be right.

Anonymous, my claim is that the "core tenets" of Judaism do not evolve. On a less fundamental level, Judaism is designed to evolve, thus the Oral Law. There is legislation surrounding the core tenets of Judaism, but they do not depart from the basic Torah principles.

Using the American constitutional system as an analogy: Any American law must agree with the constitution. Legislation enacted by Chazal had to agree with the principles of the Torah -- our constitution -- or it would have been declared null and void.

The major disagreement between Christianity and Judaism is not about terms. On the contrary, Christianity has co-opted and re-defined Jewish terms and Hebraic concepts, "messiah" being one example. The Christian messiah, his purpose, life, death, and resurrection is based on Greek mythology, not Hebraic thought.

Christianity is centered on its messiah, and loses it raison d'etre without JC. Judaism is centered on our service to HKB"H through the observance of the Torah.

"In Concert", no. There is a major disagreement on basic terms w Judaism & the Christian tradition.

Your q's are very good & I appreciate them. However, they don't really fit me. I haven't actually developed my own belief system. I participate in a long-standing, traditional belief system, w standards & practices parallel to Biblical Judaism. It called me. I didn't call it. It will continue w or w/o me. Hopefully w me :o)

As you must realize, Dvorah, the individual act improves the world significantly.

I must ardently disagree w ur statement that Judaism doesn't evolve. Ur statement is factually incorrect, although I understand the sentiment.

[My usage of 'evolve' referred 2 interpretation, causing the development of new 'sects' more n sync w contemporary goals.] Today's Judaism is _often_ spiritual macro-evolution at its best, facilitated by the sacred opinion of the teachers.

When I visit the shul, there is a continuity that is familiar. Any Jew from anywhere in the world that's come to visit feels familiar. I'm not Jewish that I know of. But I feel the difference. Christianity may have settled itself into an orthodoxy centuries ago, but there was a time when beliefs were willy-nilly. And the converted pagans tended to mix new beliefs with what they already believed. I'm not sure there's any way to truly know original Christianity. But I do trust the Torah is original Judaism.

To get even deeper, we as human beings delude ourselves very easily. We're biased. We're prone to fantasize. We like to tell a narrative in order to fill in the gaps of the unknown. We like to synthesize new information to make sense with what we already think we know. More than 3,000 years of Judaism amidst a world of shifting spirituality is quite impressive.

Orthodox. Chabad and literal/legalistic ways of thinking are Jewish common denominators. The Liberals, atheists, and Buddhist Jews are breakaways but still Jewish. Jews who believe in JC are still Jewish but not a part of the "common denominator" (continuation). Believe me, Devoralah, one day down the road, grandchildren or great grandchildren will feel the tug of being Jewish and look into it. This is why we have so many converts and returnees.

Nevertheless, if your life is centered on JC, it is largely because Christian tradition brought his story to you. A life centered on JC is not in concert with Judaism. Though you may parted ways somewhat with Christianity, evolving your own religious system, individuals doing just that are also not in concert with the principles of Judaism.

You can have your individual beliefs. Anyone can. Where is the continuity though? Who will pass your beliefs on to your grandchildren? Does that even matter to you, and if not, why bother? How will what you believe have a shot at improving the world on any significant level?

Judaism is a community based, generational religious system with core tenets that do not "evolve", it is the covenant of the Jewish people, binding us to one another and to G-d. The Torah is our constitution, stable and immutable -- something our fathers and mothers gave up their lives for, rather than compromise, all having had enduring effects for the good on the world.

What was your original point? I didn't get it. By the way, in what way do you believe in Jesus? Do you believe in "witnessing" to Jews to get them "saved"?

Do you know what I believe? How did you find that out?

No established religion or system of living can prevent a continuation, or evolution of ideas. It springs from every belief system in Earth's history.

People are like that. They tend to break away and keep going. Usually, the original establishment is at odds with the break-away. They are not seen as little children, they are considered errant.

Christians believe in JC, the tip of the iceberg re Christian thinking on: The purpose/primacy of blood sacrifices, how a prophet was recognize, how MBD will be recognized, atonement, sin, the nature of the Creator, the nature of man etc. This is not merely a disagreement of properly identifying one man.

"I never suggested that Judaism was Christianity."

Catholicism & Protestantism claim that their faith systems are a continuation of Judaism; their position vis-a-vis JC are the correct view Judaism should have had, and that the direction they have gone is the direction Judaism should have/would have taken had the Jewish people recognized JC as MBD.

"my religion has only one [however great] doctrinal divergeance from traditional Judaism. And that's a fact."

If you study Judaism from an authentic Jewish source, you will find that Judaism & Christianity share a similar moral code, coming from the TaNaKh. However, your OT is askew from TaNaKh, thus many conclusions diverge greatly.

The context of the question is whether or not a Jew can believe that Jesus was the Moshiach. I'd, of course, say no, in respect to Jewish theology and prophecy. But the actual question alone, can a Jew believe in Jesus, is murky. Because there are so many ways to believe in Jesus. From traditional ecumenical Christian doctrine to New Age spiritualism.

Asking whether or not a Jew can believe Jesus fulfilled prophecy has nothing to do with Jesus as a person. This was a mistake I made early on. I thought that Jews rejecting Jesus as the Moshiach meant that Jews didn't like Jesus as a person. That Jews were, G-d forbid, vindictive.

What irks me are New Age claims to Jesus completely outside of Torah trying to find middle ground. I've read some books until I came to something blatantly anti-semetic, then set them down. The issue is not whether Jesus was open-minded amongst autocratic, misogynist Jews. The issue is whether or not he fulfilled prophecy. Or will someday.

The first commandment is: You shall have no other gods before me (or beside me). What is so difficult about that that people cannot understand it or obey it?

Agreed, Catholicism isn't biblical Christianity and protestantism, whose denominations are not always in line with Biblical Christianity, is not Judaism. None of the three are Hinduism. LOL

So not every statement I make is meant to refute another idea. I am simply discussing the point.

I never suggested that Judaism was Christianity. I only stated factually, that my religion has only one [however great] doctrinal divergeance from traditional Judaism. And that's a fact. I may not be successful in every task, but I trust that I am getting better with time, and that Creator sees me and shines His truth on my way.

Really, that's all I want, to make my Creator happy... whatever that means for my life.

You may not realize this or mean for it to be this way, but when you say Jews "have no right to..." do this or that, you hit a panic button. Besides sounding rude, it hits a button which is years of memories of being discriminated against and of the Holocaust. So, you have ruffled our collective feathers with that statement. There is a nice way to say things and a not nice way. For example, you could have said, "It hurts me when I hear some Jewish people say...." and then continue the thought. Just a bit of wisdom here. Hope you understand.

Try the real thing. By not being raised in an observant Jewish home, you have been deprived of much. Perhaps your parents were similarly deprived. I suggest you give your own rightful heritage, the real Torah, a chance before thinking you've found the answer with Christianity. Anything authentic about it is because it has attempted to co-opt the Tanach...and, I might add, with spotty results..

I may disagree on a few, but mostly, she's right. Catholicism and Protestantism are not Jewish. They claim to be the branches on our tree, grafted into G-d's people through belief in JC. It may be a minor point, and very superficial to some, but it's the same as an adopted child is the parent's child, but you can't say it is the same as being their child genetically or biologically. Maybe spiritually, through love, but you can't change genes by a belief system and wanting it to be so. I like to think my aunt is more like my mom because she showed me more love, but I know she is still my aunt. Now, a Christian can argue he or she is a part of the tribe by being a branch, but only through righteous actions (7 noahide laws) can they be considered included in the world to come spiritually. So, some will be and some won't be. It depends on if they are righteous.

Anonymous...by stating that Jews have a right to define who is and who is not a Jew does not then mean I or any other Jew thinks "all Christians are idiots, ignorant of Judaism, Jewishness or anything important." Cynthia claimed, that "Jews have no business trying to determine whether Christians are part of the Jewish faith..."

Yes we do, we have and we will continue to do so.

Additionally, I must insist, via my own comparative studies, that there are many differences between Judaism & Christianity besides JC. The Jewish position on the afterlife, of sin, of atonement, the nature of man, of the Creator, of redemption, the meaning of the Messiah, hermeneutics, eschatology...they are all very different than that of Christianity. A life centered on JC means one's basic views on these subjects have departed from traditional Jewish thought.

I understand that Catholicism is very different than Protestantism, that each questions whether the other is truly Christianity. Neither is Judaism.

Thank you Karen for your post. Dvorah, a part of me wants to relate to what you say. I myself born Jewish my farther and Mother 100% Jewish. I had no Jewish upbring at all. I did not realize that I was Lost. I found some of my roots when I was told about Jesus and started to read the Bible's old and new testament. Regardless of what I believe about him, this does not prevent me from being Jewish just as I was not thought what it means to be Jewish years ago did not stop me from being Jewish. I was born Jewish and when I die I will still be a Jew that's because it comes from G_D not from man.
Once again thank you Karen I never thought maybe I could be part of the lost tribe. You got me thinking.

but Catholics are catholics. They are marked by paganism and idolatry. They do not represent all Christians and until the early 80s were not even called Christians. They were called Catholics.

A couple years back, a Rabbi I was corresponding with told me to read Think Jewish, a really great collection of essays, because I was longing to convert to traditional Judaism.

When I read it, loved it, it calmed my desire to go through formal conversion, bc page by page it became clear that the only difference between my religion and the one described in the essays was Jesus. [He didn't talk much about mysticism.]

Not all Christians are idiots, ignorant of Judaism, Jewishness or anything important. Not all Christians are either creepy fans, sinister bigots or maniacal missionaries.

The Creator gives the soul. We are responsible for learning, loving & making decisions, no matter how loud or consistent others are.

Karen, there is no debate between you and I on whether or not a Jew becomes a gentile if he or she believes in JC. There is no resignation clause for the Jew, born or converted.

Cynthia was off-topic, thus so was my response, as you have implied. Even so, her expressed sentiments required a response. Such claims unchallenged lead to big problems down the road.

Cynthia is saying we don't have a right to boundaries -- to self-define. Every people has a right to self-define. To go back to my America analogy, her argument is the same as saying America has no right to borders.

Due to our apprx 2000 year old statelessness, Christians have a very difficult time picturing us as a nation and the Torah, written and oral as our constitution, because Christianity is built on an entirely different paradigm. One doesn't just declare oneself Jewish. One must enter the proper door, via our "immigration authorities" -- the rabbis -- and according to long established community guidelines.

Believe what you say and, in fact, I also have an emotional reaction to Cynthia's post. I want to say exactly what you said. We also know, however, that within the Jewish nation, there are many who disagree with the "board of Rabbis" in Israel who determine who is and is not Jewish. Also, we do know that many people who had ancestors who are Jewish are a part of the lost tribes. Lost, because they weren't told about their Judaic roots. So, the issue becomes muddy. It is not, however, as you said, up to other people to define us. It is an in-house debate. The question here is if a Jew can believe in Jesus. The only answer is a Jew is a person, a human, and individual. He or she can believe what he or she wants, even if it's wrong and that will never change his birthright. As one rabbi said, you can dunk an elephant in water, and when he comes up out of the water, all he'll be is a wet elephant. So, you can baptize a Jew in water, and when he comes up, he's a wet Jew. Still a Jew.

Karen, you know what a Christian mindset is...the important thing is that ALL people who keep the seven Noahide laws (Google it) have just as much right to a place in the world to come. Christians are convinced that anyone who is not "saved by the blood of the lamb" is lost forever and will burn in hell for eternity.

We Jews do not believe in hell, we do not believe in the "Devil." And we sure do not believe in having any God before God. It is idolatry,

There is NO need for a blood sacrifice nor do we have to bug his mama for favors because THAT is idolatry too.

I quit.

What is a Christian mindset? What are you talking about? Please explain further so we can discuss this. The question is not can Christians believe in being Jewish, but can Jews believe in being Christian. No?

בס"ד

Cynthia writes: "Jews know nothing of the christian mindset and therefore have no business trying to determine whether Christians are part of the Jewish faith or now."

Christians can think whatever they want.

However, it is certainly the business of the Jewish people to determine who is and who is not, as you put it, "a part of the Jewish faith." in other words, a part of the Jewish people. Judaism is not merely a "faith" nor is it a only religion.

We are a people, and there are definite entry requirements that cannot be co-opted by outsiders, We have laws and you don't get to decide what they are or how we apply them. Neither do I, any more than I can decide for myself who is an American citizen for myself.

To carry the analogy further -- the "Christian mindset" is wholly irrelevant in determining who is a part of the Jewish People, just as the Mexican mindset matters not in determining who is an American.

Chutzpah!!

Jews know nothing of the christian mindset and therefore have no business trying to determine whether Christians are part of the Jewish faith or now, I suggest permitting individuals determine for themselves their relation to judaism, or the Hebrew scriptures. Please let the individual determine this for him or her self thank you

If one has to be imbalanced to believe in someone who actually existed, who taught wonderful things and who never contradicted the Torah, what does that say for the modern committed Jew?

Forget crazy theologies, sects, flakes and tyrants. Biblical Christianity is NOT anti-Judaism. Fundamental Judaism is a personal commitment to the Creator and so is true Christianity.

Sharing ideas shouldn't become a conflict of ethnic proportions.I should sy, it shouldn't continue as a conflict of ethnic proportions. I don't think I've ever met a Jew for Jesus, person, but I have come across some people who practice religious bigotry.

The truth will out. We study, so that we can truly understand the way to live. There are a thousand reasons behind everything.

I have never had to be afraid of learning what others believe, because I know who I am and why I believe what I do.

I am better for having studied and compared on my own. I don't have to be concerned about differences of opinion.

Yes, in fact, in your new testament, it is said that the leaders who cause followers to stray will have it so bad in the end, that they'd wish they had an anvil hung around their neck and they drowned, or some such wording. So, preachers in the Christian religion who preach badly about Jews without concern for the whole group's reputation will be judged harshly by G-d. The wording of the new testament uses words such as "the Jews" (implying ALL Jews rather than a small sect or small group in one area). It also cites the ranting of Paul, who had self-hated because he hated Jews. I don't see how he could, though, because Jesus was Jewish. I really wish and pray that those Jews who do start believing in Jesus as being the Messiah would at least refrain from the Jew bashing that goes on in many churches. It's awful when someone hates themselves. Christianity, unfortunately, has had a greater impact on rescuing people who are damaged, but now Judaism is getting there with missions.

I am a Christian and I love Jews to bits because of what the Bible taught me about them. I take time to read about their history as most scriptures in the Bible depicts the undying love of God for the people. If we Christians in anyway display the hatred for the nation we are missing something.

בס"ד

Assuming you are approved as a candidate, study is 1-2 years.

Being Jewish is a serious responsibility. This is not meant as disrespectful. Judaism is not about numbers or proselytizing. Those approved ideally are serious about achieving & sustaining a high level of observance.

Once a person converts, there is no way back, no way to un-convert. If, over time, you become non-observant, you'll be accountable to G-d as a sinning Jew. If G-d wants you to serve Him as a righteous gentile, no rabbi wants to turn you into a sinning Jew.

If you still desire to convert, find an Orthodox rabbi who specializes in conversions, one which will be universally recognized, rather than wasting time on a "quickie" conversion, which will only render you an older gentile. Avoid rabbis with low standards.

Much success!!

Can you please clarify, if one can convert to Judaism and if so, what is necessary to finalize the conversion, besides, having it in your mind, heart and soul.

thanks,

בס"ד

Christians wonder why Jews don't see JC as clearly from our reading of the Hebrew Scriptures as they see from their Old Testament. They think the two books are identical, except for the fact that the TaNaKh is in Hebrew, sometimes with a translation into the local vernacular on the opposing pages. They are not the same thing at all.

Why? Because Christian translators do not use reliable primary source material; they do not translate key passages related to Messiah ben David correctly, conveniently changing or eliminating words that do not suit their purpose; do not follow correct rules in interpreting Scripture -- they don't let the passage interpret itself; treat allegorical passages as literal and vice versa, and do not understand how to use the Oral Law as a resource in understanding them.

In short, the Hebrew Scriptures are Jewish. Jews trained to understand Hebrew concepts will understand it correctly. Everyone else will try to make them bend to their wishes.

Who asked ME why the Jews don't accept Christ when the signs are all THERE in the Old Testament. At that time, I was a Christian (I thought), but that question BOTHERED me immensely. I said, "Look. Would YOU believe in a book that gives you spiritual advice IF you CHANGED all the words that say or relate to JEWS into BLACKS? The comments in the New Testament about Jews are RACIST, inflammatory and they paint us ALL out to be as Dvorahlah said. Exactly. According to the NT we are sinful, stiff necked and stubborn, G-d has seared our brains so we won't know that we have a death penalty coming, we are out to step on the sick, weak and infirmed. If we see a fallen person, we walk across the street and keep on going without helping. The word "Jew" itself is said with one of two emotions, dramatically. The preachers alternate between DISGUST and PITY. So, you sit there listening to this drivel and just how long do you think you will want to stay in the "Xtian" persuasion? Huh? Sik-ning

Most people do think that what they say and do is RIGHT and positive. Why? The response I got when I asked my students in middle school is the common answer even among adults. "It's right because I did it", and, "It's right because look at all my friends, they're doing it too". "If it wasn't right, we wouldn't do it, and we do it so therefore it's right". I got the same answer from a Christian minister when I asked why he spoke about Jews that way. He said he was TAUGHT that's how you do it, so he does it, and it's right because all the others preach it that way, too. His best friends are Jews and he goes to Israel so that proves he's not Jew bashing. He says he doesn't know any other way to talk about the Jews except how it is in the New Testament.

בס"ד

Even in the Protestant churches, even without the allegations of Christ killing, there's a lot of focus on where "the Jews" supposedly missed the "obvious" signs re JC, our sinfulness and stiff-necked ways etc. "How could those blinded Jews miss Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22??" So obvious (that is, if you can't read Hebrew fluently, and rely on a Christian "translation" -- more like mutilation). Many sermons on the

I guess I need to clarify. When I grew up the church I went to and there are not many of them do not celebrate Christmas or Easter. It was considered a man made holiday. At those times the sermons were not about those topics. No decorations. In fact no musical instruments were allowed either. I have not darkened the door of a church in nearly 10 years. Home bound. I have learned a lot on the history channel, discovery and documentary channel with the internet. My children when they were small got Santa Claus and the Easter bunny no religious reference whatsoever. At the time I felt that children needed a little bit of fairy tales when they are small because they do grow up quickly. If I have offended I apologize it was not my intent.

Was that before he said it, the legal position was the Jews DID kill Jesus. Pope Benedict XVI just recently recanted this position. I have never been inside a church, but I know that when I was at a friend's house, as a teen, his dad came in and asked for my name and when I said my last name, he said, "That's a JEW name?" and picked up a rifle. I flew out of there swifter than a road runner. In the Christian churches, there has been no such declaration. When I went to a Lutheran church, the minister showed me a pamphlet in which there is an APOLOGY to the Jews for helping create the holocaust, as they took much of the blame on themselves and were sorry. That was the only minister I met who did NOT make a big, dramatic deal on Easter about the Jews killing Christ. In fact, ALL Christians I speak with say there is NO JEW BASHING because they don't view what is being said in that way. They view it as "historical" and it comes from their scriptures. You can't read those & not see it.

I was raised as a Christian, however at the church I attended there was not Jew bashing on Easter or any other time. I cant speak for all churches though. I am questioning everything I have ever been taught but one thing I DO know is NO One deserved the holocaust. That was pure evil.

Have any form or semblance of pride in being Jewish. The reason is that MOST of the year, it's all preaching nicey nicey stuff about love and peace, and then comes EASTER. Then, it's all about Jew bashing. It's hard, and it feels like you want to crawl under your chair and not be seen if you go to church on that day. They still do talk about how the Jews kill Christ and some ministers make a big, dramatic display of how the Jews tortured him before he died. One Jewish girl I know who became the wife of an Arab Christian minister, deals with it thusly. She said that the Jews DESERVED the Holocaust because they didn't become Christian. It shocked me to no end. Even if you are not observant, if you have any kind of self love or care about Jews, you will not be happy in that religion. It's not all nicey nice and peace. Not at all!!!!

Christians believe in what they term the "New Testament." Deuteronomy 4:2 PROHIBITS any new books to be added.

Our Father Abraham was told by Hashem that the covenant (testament) that he was making with him was ETERNAL.

Who are you going to believe? Gd, Abraham or the Christian?

Christians just have to follow the Seven Noahide Laws to obtain a place in the world to come. They are children of Gd too.

Some people think it is racist to claim that we are the chosen people...go argue with the Creator of the Universe. If you can change his mind, fine, but until then, we, the Jewish people are still the chosen ones. Not for favorable treatment, but for the honor of keeping his commandments.

The NT was written a long time after those who had seen J were dust.

I think that is the point of the article. A person is free to believe in whatever they wish, but one needs to call a spade a spade. The Torah itself tells us in Deuteronomy that we should not believe a prophet,even if they perform miracles, if they come to add or take away (i.e. saying they irrelevant) from any of the commandments in the Torah. As such, to claim something is Judaism when it isn't, is both dishonest and disrespectful.

Well, suppose a Jew believes that everything JC taught is in the Torah and Kaballa?

then if he believes in JC, he is believing the consciousness of that individual and what he taught is true.

בס"ד

There are two questions here: What is the status of an individual Jew? Can he lose his Jewishness? No he can't. He will always be an authentic Jew...meaning, he is Jewish. However, if he indulges in any form of idolatry -- and a life centered on Jesus is a form of idolatry -- then his belief system and the subsequent lifestyle that grows from that belief system is not authentically Jewish.

If everything is Jewish, then nothing is. A Torah centered system of faith does have parameters, like everything. Similarly, a Christian who centers his life around Muhammad can't be said to be practicing authentic Christianity.

I am not saying one Jew is more "important" to G-d than another. Not my job. I personally think all Jews are infinitely precious to G-d.

It's easy to see what is authentic Judaism. Which system actually produces Jews in future generations and in which system do we find mostly non-Jewish grandchildren? Studies have been conducted and the results speak for themselves.

It means TRUE, real, or having the characteristics of whatever you say you are or such thing. In this way, Dev, you're saying Jews who don't believe the way you do are not real and not true Jews. You can't, in one paragraph, say all Jews are Jews and in the same paragraph say some are more authentic than others. This shows judgement, no way around it. You can say Jews are different, but to say some are more authentic than others shows a hierarchy of importance to G-d. If you think you are more authentic than I am, that mean you put yourself on a higher plane with Go-d and I am on a lower rung. Is this what you mean to be doing?

בס"ד

The title is unfortunate, because the answer is self-evident. Of course a Jew can believe in JC and if he does, he remains a Jew; a sinning Jew who will have a lot to answer for one day, but nevertheless, a Jew. For that reason, I take the title to be alluding to a more specific issue -- whether it is correct for a Jew to believe in JC; or whether a Jew should believe in JC. That is what I think R' Moss meant. Otherwise, the question has no meaning.

And, the answer is: No, a Jew should not believe in JC.

As far as whether or not a Jew can be a less authentic or a more authentic Jew...that's not the point either. A Jew is a Jew is a Jew. And so, by definition, he is authentically Jewish.

Can a Jew live a less authentic or a more authentic Jewish life -- yes. There are Jews who do not live up to the Divine Mandate they have been given by having the privilege of being Jews -- which is living a less authentic life vis-a-vis the Torah, both written and oral -- our raison d'etre.

Are some Jews more authentic than others? You also say "the point it", but the question is not about your take on the question. It says, "C A N", not "should".

בס"ד

You wrote: "aside fr what the church has done and the atrocities in history in JC's name, can somebody tell me what part of Love they neighbor as they own self
you do not understand? ...and how does it differ with anything in the Torah?"

It doesn't differ with the Torah. It's a direct quote from Parshat Kedoshim: "You shall not take revenge and you shall not bear a grudge against the members of your people; you shall love your fellow as yourself - I am HaShem." Leviticus 19:18 (ויקרא יח)

And yet JC claims this as a "new commandment" claiming that prior to his words, the Jewish people were taught "an eye for an eye" --- which reveals a twisted, superficial understanding of what those words mean.

Why would a Jew turn to a book with questionable credentials, which regularly misquotes, takes out of context and even "quotes" verses from TaNaKh that don't exist, which mixes Greek mystery religions with Torah...when he or she can turn to the Torah itself and learn from it in purity?

aside fr what the church has done
and the atrocities in history in JC's name, can somebody tell me what part of Love they neighbor as they own self
you do not understand?

and how does it differ with anything in the Torah?

בס"ד

There is certainly no cause for judging individuals. That's HaShem's job, not ours. At the same time, moral /cultural relativism can be an idol too.

We're discussing a specific belief system and whether it is compatible with an authentic Jewish life. We are not discussing the value of individual Jews. Regardless of whether any given Jew is caught up in an alien belief system, he or she is still infinitely precious to Hashem.

That is why this question is so important. Our concern shouldn't be reserved only for those caught up in a mistaken belief about JC. Any belief system outside of the Torah will eventually bring great disappointment to the life of those who hold to it. That includes an excessive focus on romantic love, success or fame, idols many Americans struggle with, because those are the true "American idols" (Youtube: R' Manis Friedman).

The value of each Jew is priceless. We can't afford to lose even one and when we do, the entire Jewish people suffers greatly.

Gee, I didn't mean to be judging judgemental people either

But after discussing so many ideas and concepts and theologies
i come to the conclusion that the best I can do is try to do mitzvahs and kindnesses for my neighbors
and anybody else in my path of life
the best obsession is the magnificent obsession to try to help somebody and tell noone about it

Of course some Jews believe in him -- and yes, throughout history -- here and there. Thank G-d, the vast majority do not.

Some Jews believe in a lot of different things. That alone does not make their beliefs kosher. The point of this discussion is not whether Jews believe in Jesus or not. The point is this: Is a belief in J compatible with authentic Judaism? The answer is a resounding "no". Judaism is not a worldview that can be privately defined.

One can make a fair comparison to the US Constitution. It can't be changed ad hoc because a few Americans want it to be changed. It's a big process. Only with Judaism, it is defined by G-d. As a community, we can't vote against it's basic principles.

There could be a thousand "messianic" congregations each with their own apostate Jew as a leader -- that doesn't make their belief system an authentic Jewish one. And ... most of those congregations are lucky to have three Jews in them.

That should tell you something.

Vocally are vicious. Their words show hatred, anger, rejection. We are not all like that. So, please, give your opinions and just accept that some other people will have their own opinions. In fact, this is an orthodox/chassidic blog site, so you have to know you will get some very extreme views. So, I'm sticking to these less volatile issues. I hope you do, as well.

I have been taking part in the discussion
and others i this society
Now it is time for me to bow out
I don't know what others think
or how many jews are buddhists
or believers in JC
but I do mitzvahs and try to be humble and loving and kind
Kindness is how He created the world
I am sticking to that
there is a big shortage of kindness
let's all keep it simple, eh?
Like a Rebettzin once said to me
"I am worried about the price of butter and chickens to feed my family with"
let's get real
people are starved for kindness
so where is the Chesed in this discussion?

The founding document of the Jewish nation is the Torah. Anyone who truly studies the "New Testament" and compares its various claims vis-a-vis JC will immediately see he can't qualify as the Jewish messiah, if only on pedigree, yet there is so much more.

Adamantly opposing Jews leaving the Torah for JC (by any name) can't be compared to the persecution the Jewish people during our history. To make that comparison is obscene. No Jews are calling for death of Christians.

Jews leaving Judaism for JC hurts the entire fabric of the Jewish people. A Jew who decides to believe in JC is abandoning his or her people and the Jewish people's Divine Mandate. He or his children will be very likely to marry out...thus the death of Jewish souls. Furthermore, it tears entire families apart. I've seen this first hand. Believing someone is the Jewish Messiah when he simply will never qualify is a form of idolatry that the vast majority of Jews, observant or no, simply will not tolerate.

I really think this criticism is very harsh. It is no different than the persecution that you are against. Jews for Jesus are not hurting anyone. If one is strong in their faith or beliefs what does it matter if someone presents different ideas. Instead of running away, perhaps it would have been more constructive to open up a dialogue. Your views seem superficial and narrow at best. We are a nation of free speech and many Christians feel it is their duty to evangelize and not for the nefarious reasons you suggest.

I have been quetioning a lot of things lately. I was raised Christian but started thinking how the bible said to keep the Sabbath. From there it just springboarded. Started reading books on Judaism I think I wanted to know the beginning better. I go to the daily torah reading on Chabad.Org every day. I am not looking to convert anyone. I am just searching for what I am not sure. I live in a rural area and it was a long way to get to that Tabernacle, plus I have a special needs child so searching has to be the internet. Have been reading books and learning Hebrew. Any recommendations I feel I am not where I should be but dont know what it is.

The website has information, videos etc. yes. If you called them,

Penina Taylor has emphasized that when a Jew strays, he or she often has to fight his or her way back to Judaism. It might be part of your tikkun nefesh. You need to open up to someone, and when you don't find people who will respond, move on, keep going until you find someone who will work with you, invest in you.

There are Youtube videos by Jews for Judaism too. You might consider contacting Penina Taylor directly. She also has a website where she posts the stories of other Jews who have returned from Xtianity. There is also Rabbi Tovia Singer's Outreach Judaism site.

Don't give up. Your relationship with G-d is worth it. You need to know that He has some special friends out there just waiting for you. He will put tests in front of you in order to help you strengthen your resolve that you want to come home completely. It's like falling down a steep hill, and then climbing back up....

....believe in JC. Reducing the question to whether or not the family is happy is not the point here. The question is this: Is making JC the center of one's life a Jewish concept?

The answer is no. It is avoda zara (Idol worship).

Anything that takes center stage in a Jew's life besides G-d is avodah zarah. Not having "any other g-d's" besides Him made it to the "Big Ten", after all.

Of course, anyone can do as he or she pleases. We're not in prison. However, all choices have consequences. The consequences of avodah zarah to a member of the nation -- the Jewish Nation -- which was brought into existence for the express purpose of teaching the nations the futility of avodah zarah are serious.

Yes, these congregations exist, and we know they exist, which is part of the reason why we are having this discussion. The really interesting thing about socalled "messianic Jewish" congregations is that the vast majority of the members are not Jewish. That should say something.

only shows a store to buy things and a way to give money to their cause. I contacted them and will see what answer I get. The nearest one is in Los Angeles and that's too far for me to drive. I'll let you know.

I'll let you know what happens, if anything.Thanks.

Some Jews have and do believe in Jesus, since 33 A.D. Jesus was a Jew, so were his Talmidim, and many of his followers. He did not ask for permission from anyone to teach as he did and is not looking for permission from any autority now to be approved of by any organization, scholar, etc. Since that time, many people, Jews included, have believed in Jesus, and likewise, many have not. Today, many Messianic Synagogues exist throughout the Unites States, Europe and even Israel. Some Jews "do" believe in Jesus, and some do not. Same for Gentiles, some believe and some dont. That is just how it is. Although this upsets some people, those who believe get enough out of their faith that belief in Jesus is more important than pleasing family. Daniel Schnieder from Shalom Hebrew Christian Congregation in Kingwood TX. He studied for a PH.D. as a Rabbi, & became a believer in Jesus to the shock of all. A great teacher, his parents are upset; same for Johnathan Burnis, now on TBN TV.

Maybe you need to get to know other Jews who have also been through similar experiences in order to find your way back? Perhaps a sense of loss in your family causes you to wonder what the point is? But if you plug away, and find friends and mentors to help you climb back, your example may speak to them, or to their children? Sometimes things are not made right in our lifetimes, but because of our example they are made right eventually.

Have you ever read Penina Taylor's book, "Coming Full Circle"? Her story is not totally parallel, as she was able to pull her family out when her children were young, and her husband converted. But it might help. Also, the Jews for Judaism website might have some stories from Jews who've left which may encourage you. I'm guessing perhaps you feel isolated, and that there are few who really understand your situation, which is contributing to that sense of isolation? Please forgive my presumption in guessing. I may be totally off in my guessing.

In fact, if I had continued to live in Cleveland, Ohio with my Torah observant grandparents and my aunt who was the president of a Jewish religious school, I'd have thought exactly as you do, and my life would have taken a different direction. Once someone has been exposed to Christianity, it's nearly impossible to be torah observant to the extent one would be had he/she not been exposed. I can't explain why, but it seems to be so. My Jewish faith was stolen from me through Christianity, and although I am back, it's just not the same. Some of the feeling of innocence and naivete is gone.

I've heard the same worries expressed.

Whether a small or large nation, our primary concern should be purity of our service to G-d and love towards one another. After a Discovery Seminar, the speaker assured the audience of largely assimilated Jews that he was not inviting them to a life of Torah and Mitzvot due to fear we would disappear.

Our treasure and deepest joy is serving G-d purely as stated in the Sh'ma. Yirmeyahu 31:34 assures us we will not disappear. Quoting the last part: “Thus said G-d: If the heavens above could be measured or the foundations of the earth plumbed below, so too would I reject the entire seed of Israel because of everything they did...." Knowing that in our bones is emunah and bitachon. That is when we live powerfully.

Believing in JC is the opposite of serving G-d in purity. It is avodah zarah (idol worship). When a Jew practices avodah zarah, intermarriage follows, also forbidden by the Torah, and a betrayal of our Divine Mandate.

First, some Jewish people hate the idea of Jews believing in Jesus because it will LESSEN the numbers of Jews; secondly, I've heard rabbis say that we have to replenish the Jewish nation after the Holocaust took out so many... So, yes, we are about numbers. G-d's promise to us is that we would be like the sand on the beach. With the Pogroms, the Holocaust and the KKK, we've been getting decimated and depleted. This is another reason that strictly Torah Observant families often are so large. It is also a reason many (Orthodox, although you don't like that term) people follow the anti-birth control rule so strictly. I didn't realize we did this. It's just like the rule the Catholic church has. It actually shocked me to learn this.

To me in means being a part of the community unconditionally. It means always having the opportunity to do teshuvah/repent.

We've never been about numbers.

It means that there are more people included in our religion than excluded or rejected.

I love it too. May I pry a bit and ask why you love it?

Me first. I love the sense of security, of belonging. However, there is a liability attached. We will always be held responsible for our actions, and we are held to a higher standard.

G-d is gracious though. We are the first people to have expounded on that principle. The polytheists of old were busy trying to do whatever they could to appease their various idols, imagining that their lives were being toyed with as a form of entertainment by those idols.

In contrast, the Torah teaches the idea that G-d's ultimate purposes are for the benefit of all mankind, and that when we make mistakes, all we need to do is turn around (teshuvah), mend our ways, ask for G-d's forgiveness and our sins would be removed from us.

Animal sacrifice was never the primary method of teshuvah, let alone human sacrifice of some imagined godman, the entire idea of which is anathema to the Torah, the roots being in ancient paganism.

When a Jewish kid is abused by parents and made fun of or harmed physically by other Jewish kids, you can see the writing on the wall that when that kid grows up, he/she WILL be vulnerable to the Jews for Jesus type and other Christian missionaries. It's common sense. So, to all you Jewish parents who want their kids to grow up and marry Jewish, PLEASE treat your children KINDLY and make sure they ENJOY their childhood with groups of other Jewish children as well as learning how to interact with non-Jewish children.

Devorah, "A Jew remains a Jew regardless of belief". I love that idea.

A Jew remains a Jew regardless of belief. However, believing in Jesus as Messiah ben David or in any way making him the center of one's world has been decided by our Sages as a form of idolatry, or avodah zara -- serving other gods. Why this ruling was made another subject. You can read why at such sites as Jews for Judaism or Outreach Judaism.

For the Jew, it is impossible to fulfill our purpose in this world without learning the place our Sages should hold in our thinking.

The view is not limited to Jesus. It includes Buddhism, New Age religious beliefs, Islam, Druidism etc. Anything except making HaShem one's center of gravity spiritually is avodah zara.

A Jew doesn't lose their status as a Jew because he or she chooses to be an idolater. On the contrary, because we have the unique responsibility of educating the world about why idolatry is a mistake with serious consequences attached to it, the Jew bears a heavier penalty.

I don't want to be offensive but I just don't understand the logic of the answer given by the Rabbi. A vegetarian is not born a vegetarian but is one by choice. If being Jewish was just about a religous choice I could agree. But since, from a Jewish law perspective, a Jew who is born of a Jewish mother is Jewish regardless of belief, than belief is not the ultimate factor in a person's "Jewishness". For example, if a person who is born Jewish decides as an adult that there is no G-d and that the scriptures are untrue they are still considered Jewish even though those beliefs are heretical. So what possible difference could it make if they choose to believe Jesus is the Messaiah?

Went from Muslim to Christian. My dear, you may not understand what you are reading on these sites. You see, Jews love to do what looks like "arguing" to others. It is not really arguing. It's more like debating and expressing opinions which call for analysis through other people's opinions. We do stuff like questioning a question, etc. It's a way of life and a sort of tradition with us. So, please don't think we are arguing with each other. We are sharing ideas. I am personally happy for you that you found peace in Christianity. I hope that you will also find peace in your heart regarding the Jewish nation. I understand a long time ago, Muslim and Jewish children used to play together peacefully in the middle east. May 2011 and years to follow bring this back. G-d bless you.

I love the sound of Hebrew. It touches the soul like nothing else can. I've always had that reaction to Hebrew.

I appreciate ALL prayers! Even if in Hebrew, which I can't understand. There is something calming and re-assuring about Hebrew prayers.

...story in brief with me and with the rest of the posting community here. I have heard many similar stories like this. It's tragic. I think the whole thing is worse than watering down the Jewish people, it's a form of soul theft, as you have seen with your own family.

Believe me, I have no reason to stand in judgement whatsoever. It just makes me weep for the heartbreak of it all. What gives me hope is teachings I have heard from different rabbis, that all the Jewish people will eventually be perfected, some through mitzvoth, some through suffering, (probably most of through a combination of both). So, perhaps those family members we have lost will come back to us someday. We can only do teshuvah, say tefilos for ourselves and those we love, and hope for a better day. And, teach those who will listen what we have learned from expensive mistakes.

All the best Chaya Fradle. I will say some prayers for you and your family, as well as my own today.

By marrying a non-Jew, I thought it would be ok, but I found out that my MANNERISMS, ways of talking, thinking, behaving, all were sources of EMBARRASSMENT to him. He went from idolizing me before marriage to insulting me constantly, and he convinced our sons I was mentally ill for how I behaved. After the divorce, I couldn't get our sons to go either to church or to synagogue. At this time, they believe in Go-d, but do NOT identify as being Jewish, although they were both circumcised and given Jewish names, and taught the major prayers in Hebrew (by me). My granddaughters do not think of themselves as any religion at all. So, yes, it waters down the Jewish people in the generations. I am so sad about this now that I am back to my roots again. We can't change the past, however. Would I suggest that Jewish people believe in Jesus? No. If anything, they should just realize Jesus was a reformer of Judaism and that's all. No such thing as a "Gospel". It's based on a lie. Many lies.

I was just reading Aryeh Kaplans Anthology. I think I read from there that animal cruelty is akin to murder. I am reading so many books right now, I can't really remember the source of that concept at the moment, and I don't want to go thumb through them all in order to figure it out. I would agree with you that animal cruelty is terrible.

On the other hand, believing in Jesus separates a Jew from his people, where he has a chance to learn NOT to be cruel to animals, as well as the rest of the ethics the Torah has given the world which make Jews and everyone else better people, thus making for a better world.

Belief in Jesus is idolatry plain and simple, and has consequences in World to Come, as well as in a Jew's ability to absorb the lessons of the Torah. By separating himself from the Jewish people, he then separates any children he has as well, which is cruel to them, robbing them of their birthright. I think being cruel to children is far worse than being cruel to animals.

Yes, within the Reform movement, there are Jews I have met who talk about the STRANGEST ideas. Not all, but some. There is one who was totally BUDDHIST and even gave me a book about a Buddhist Monk who is Jewish. Although I am open minded and NOT at all Torah observant, it SHOCKED me to no end! Also, I did hear about Jews chanting the NamYaHo chant, and doing all sorts of weird things. So, the person who asked why are other thoughts systems ok except Jesus are coming from the ASSUMPTION that those thought systems are ok. This is a great site, because I think conversing with each other is a new awakening to people who had false ideas. In the torah, it says only to kill an animal for food (not sport), and yet there are THOUSANDS, if not more, Jews who believe in guns and shooting animals for sport. This, also, is shocking to me. I'd almost rather see a Jew believe in Jesus than do animal cruelty. What's worse? Killing is worse.

anonymous, Houston, TX:

"I read that even Jews who officially regard themselves as ATHEISTS are still regarded as Jews..."

True. That does not mean they have the privileges associated with being Jewish. They do retain the liabilities.

"in order to keep the Jewish people together as a culture and a nation."

A person born Jewish or who undergoes a kosher conversion is just always a Jew. That's the Jewish Law.

"... why on earth reject Jews who believe in Jesus?"

They are not rejected as Jews. No one will claim they are not Jews. Their beliefs are rejected as not being authentically Jewish.

"Why is every other thought system okay inside Judaism EXCEPT those who believe in Jesus?"

Learning from a Torah perspective (Orthodox) will reveal that this is simply not the case. There are outreach efforts for Jews caught up in all sorts of cults and religions. They all take a Jew away from his Divine mission, which can only be carried out within Torah Judaism.

Can a Jew believe in Jesus? I tried it, and it really was VERY hard. EXTREMELY, because in the "New" Testament, they speak very badly about Jews and I got defensive. I also didn't like what their Apostle Paul said about Jews, or how he changed the requirement for being a leader of spirituality having to be celibate. We Jews LOVE our Rabbis to be MARRIED and WITH children. Their Apostle Peter, on the other hand, seemed to want to open up the term "children of G-d" to Gentiles, and take away the social stigma of being a Gentile. They didn't have Noahide laws back then, so what Peter said was pretty open minded. To this day, Christians ENVY us so badly that they call themselves "grafted" into Go-d's family. They EMULATE us in many ways. I felt so WEIRD sitting in a church where everyone said they were GRAFTED into the family when I was BORN into it. So, yes, you can SAY you believe in Jesus, but like I said, it will be HARD to maintain it. So many things were untrue with the Gospel.

At a chabad web site defining Judaism, I read that even Jews who officially regard themselves as ATHEISTS are still regarded as Jews in order to keep the Jewish people together as a culture and a nation. The article went on to explain that in reform Synagogues, everyone born Jewish was considered so, even if they completely rejected God or the reality of the miracles of the Torah as real history. If this is true then why on earth reject Jews who believe in Jesus? I even know of Jews who believe in Buddhism, Wicca, Eastern Mysticism, and so on. Why is every other thought system okay inside Judaism EXCEPT those who believe in Jesus?

I never claimed to be speaking for all Jews. I am sadly aware of how many Jews do not consider authentic Torah Judaism via the authority of the Sages of Israel as their standard. Perhaps this why the Jewish assimilation rate is so tragically high?

We are an eternal people with an eternal calling. Those who opt out of the eternal calling will find that their particular family line will be "opted" out as Jews, somewhere between the second and fourth generation after apostasy.

It is possible to label a particular belief system as apostasy without labeling an individual. Such judgments of individual Jews is best left to a bais din (court of Jewish law). To recognize a given Jew as an apostate does not necessarily mean there is no compassion. Full restoration (with honor) always awaits such a person.

The LABEL "orthodox": First coined by the Reform movement in Germany, in a hostile, aggressive effort to marginalize Jews still proud enough to live as Jews.

Ref: "WorldPerfect" by R' Ken Spiro

I can tell you are either Orthodox or deeply into Chabad theology and practice. However, please. You don't speak for all Jews. Many don't believe the same way you do. In your circle of religious people, what you are saying is traditionally correct and is a good example of the other posting called "Why do Jews Exclude others". In this case, how you describe Judaism, it's a good example of how Jews exclude other Jews from Judaism. You think it is the OTHER person who is abandoning the Torah and so therefore leaving the Jewish people. I see it as YOU GUYS who are pushing us out. It's all in the point of view, isn't it? From your point of view, Judaism loses because of Jews who don't follow the Torah YOUR WAY. From my point of view, Judaism loses because it takes this exclusionary stance by declaring others to be apostates (which is, actually, NAME calling and judgmental). So, it depends on whose point of view we are seeing this issue.

Since the Torah has clearly defined the qualifications for someone to be considered king messiah, and since our Torah also commands us in Shoftim to set up for ourselves leaders & judges and not to turn to the right or to the left when they judge a matter, and since our Sages have ruled that the man from Nazareth does not meet the Torah requirements that would allow us to consider him king messiah (let alone divine) to disregard the guidelines of our Sages is a violation of the Torah, and a form of idolatry. Idolatry is a serious aveyreh (sin).

A Jew can't convert out of being Jewish, no matter what other religion he joins. However, in choosing to become an apostate, such a Jew loses all benefits and privileges of being Jewish, yet retains the obligations and penalties. Any Jew who abandons the Torah so seriously has cut himself and his children off from the Jewish people -- not merely an individual matter, because the Jewish people all mutually accountable to one another.

It was NOT meant to be sarcastic. Whether you believe or not what the author said, she said it in a very beautifully worded manner. LazarWulf, NO, A JEW IS NOT REQUIRED to do the 613 Mitzvot, particularly since there is no temple at the present time and some are impossible. In fact, if someone told me I HAD to do something, I would probably do the opposite. I do the ones I AM ABLE TO DO as much as I can, when and how I can, to my knowledge base. You, other Jews, and I are all on different rungs of the ladder. To make such a concrete statement is a put off to many Jews who would consider coming back to Judaism from Christianity. In Christianity, they say if you break ONE of the 613, you have broken them ALL. That is not in Torah, if I am correct. Yet, with attitudes such as yours, it SOUNDS as if it is right. You also didn't mention the NOAHIDE laws for gentiles. Do you know about those?

Wow

the "poetic' comment sounds sarcastic and is not becoming to a daughter of Abraham

but be that as it may, putting "dark side" in all caps is being hateful
can you see that?

The answer I think is yes, a Jew can believe in Jesus. Should a Jew believe in Jesus? I believe that a Jew should not believe in Jesus. Now, lets reverse the question? Should a Gentile follow Torah or the 613 Mitzvot? No, a Gentile is not required to observe Torah or mitzvot. Now let's asked this. Is a Jew responsible for Torah and the 613 mitzvot? Yes. And if it is a requirement to observe mitzvot and Torah how could you possibilty have time to believe in Jesus or anything? Remember Basic Science 101? "Matter can only occupy one space at a time." either in a liquid, solid or gas state."

You can read both premises from it. You can take it as being "saved" or you can take it as "belief" in an IDEA. First, you haven't read the postings which explain a Jew is a Jew even if he disguises himself and doesn't recognize his own heritage. There is a spark of the Jewish soul which never dies. Never. No matter what. Secondly, the person called Jesus was not evil. He said some pretty awesome things about Torah, and even tried to get rid of the hypocritical practices of selling items outside the temple on the Sabbath. In fact, some of the things he said about Judaism were NOT HEEDED by Christianity. He said NOTHING would change in the Torah, and they went about changing it after his death. So, you may show hatred or feel despair over Jewish people BELIEVING or GOING OVER TO THE DARK SIDE (Christianity), but I don't feel that same hatred or despair. I feel sorry that others can't get out of sects, but don't feel hatred or fear. They are still Jewish, after all. I love them.

Go to Ezekiel chapter 18. READ IT. It says VERY CLEARLY that nobody can die for another's sins. That means that Jesus' blood is as useful as water as far as forgiveness is concerned.

Moses asked G-d to take his life in Exodus in exchange for the sin of the golden calf. G-d said NO, only the person who dies for their sins is the individual who committed the sin. JESUS INCLUDED.

The facts of his birth are no different than any other mythical "virgin births" of which there are many. Jesus wasn't deified for over 300 years after he was dead and his flesh was long rotted away.

If a Jew wishes to remain a Jew, he or she CANNOT "accept Jesus as lord and Saviour" because the instant they do, they become Christians and Christians are NOT Jews.

We know who Socrates was, we know who Newton was, we know who a lot of people were, but there is not a mention of Jesus in any non theological book. If he was supposedly that important, someone would have mentioned him. But they don't.

Lovely thoughts.

there is a belief in Kaballa and in other ancient and mystical belief systems
and it is used in modern day scientific and mathematical research--the belief is that if we could suspend our thinking for only a fraction of a nano second and imagine something totally different, what would it be?
would it be beautiful or
would it be chaos
can we for a flicker of a second suspend judgement of each other and see clouds of mystery which may clear to reveal a new way of life?

The way you are thinking and believing is so very clear and concise. If everyone thought like that, there would be no WARS, no arguments, and no divorces. There would be a flow of members visiting each other's religious services and loving each other. I believe as you do, but how do you move an immovable rock from people's hearts? There is so much that is good and pure and loving in Christianity, along with things that aren't quite Kosher or true; however, because of history, Jews and Christians often fear each other. I like to learn about everyone's religion and take into my life the good points and ideas. However, for some reason, I am Jewish, and love being Jewish as well. I guess I'm more open minded than many. I do have a mixed family in both race and religion.

Okay

Now I read all the comments

and here is mine:

When we all get to the world beyond or above or wherever we go in the next life, the main question will be
Who did you serve with love and humility
I think that if you went to the wrong church or belonged to any religion and just went along as a member of the team, without any heart or passion or real meaning --in other words, without consciousness, that could be a problem
But really I think G-d or the Judgement Seat is really going to want to know how you lived--who you loved and how you served and that will be the way you are judged.

I might cadge one of those Yiddish Bibles from J's for JC. I never thought of Judaism as an exclusive religion. Members of exclusive religions often prefer not to mention their particular faith, such people habitually hide more than they reveal. I would say that Judaism is a semi-exclusive religion. Sikhism for example is also a semi-exclusive religion.

Repairing the world is indeed something we should all practice, in one way or another. Every act of kindness touches the heart of someone. In not participating in this, we are not only harming others, but ourselves as well, because we lack to do something that is fundamental. I believe G-d didn't create us to be self-centered and to be hesitant. We are always blaming others, or waiting for others to make the first move. I believe G-d created us to be a light that shines for others. If we act out of kindness and respect, He is glorified and honoured. I find it difficult to explain my exact feelings about this in English, because it is not my native language, but I hope it is understandable what I'm trying to explain. Tikkun Olam to me is an important part of why we are here. It is essential. The question is when we are going to realize that.
Karen, I would love to meet you, thank you for your reflections, they mean a lot to me!

There is a saying and it goes like this. You LOOK Jewish and SOUND Jewish and THINK like you're Jewish....are you SURE you're not Jewish? I think you are. Anyway, I really, honestly, appreciate how you think and express yourself. I, too, have taken issue with Rabbis before. I found, oddly enough, that they don't all agree philosophically on how to interpret life events and how to answer questions. They are very, very different, one from another. You should also know that "Whoever saves one life saves the world" and individual kindness is one of the Mitzvahs. It is called "Tikkun Olam", and is one of the ways we can show our love to AND from G-d. I, too, have been taken to task for disagreeing with various Rabbis. So? It's also very Jewish to discuss and debate, as you are doing. I love that Chabad.Org allows this friendly banter and discussion. I just wish we could all meet together one day. I would totally hug you as my sister in Judaism.

It is most certainly not my intention to be intolerant to the Rabbi and I meant the Rabbi who wrote this article. But I can most certainly disagree with this article and the way it is written. As far as I'm concerned, that has nothing to do with intolerance, but with a matter of opinion.
I agree with you that millions of people of different races and religions have been killed throughout the ages for religious or political reasons.
But that doesn't mean we have to give up on trying to learn from all that happened. All of us humans have the obligation to try and make this world a better place. We really should be able to learn how to respect each other.
It doesn't have to be on a monumental scale, you know. We can start in our own backyard. Every individual counts and if we manage to respect the ones closest to us, whether we disagree or not, it is a good start.
"Whoever saves one life saves the world."
Individual kindness is like a stone in the water. It expands, I'm sure of that!

I totally agree with your posting and what you said about respecting other's beliefs. If that had been applied throughout centuries, there would not have been wars in history and the Crusades (lead by Christians to kill the Jews) would not have achieved their main objective in killiing thousands if not millions of humans mostly Jews, the Inquisition would not have happened and maybe the First and second World War more recently would not have ocurred. Sadly, the human race has not obeyed this basic principle in moral human relations and instead have jealously or zealously killed one another for religious reasons. How can we now instill tolerance in this day if most of the wars in our times are also for religious reasons apart from land possession? As for your last sentence refering to the Rabbi who wrote this article, and that you regret the sarcasm. It is not clear to me what sarcasm and which Rabbi you are refering to? Are you not being intolerant with the Chabad Rabbi? Human nature?

The biggest problem for a Jew to believe in Jesus is not the belief that Jesus was the Messiah but believing what his followers believed,that he was god. Jesus himself never said he was God. Jesus said he was "the son of God" and this was true as all of us are children of God. Jesus' disciples, mainly Paul, interpreted this wrongly, preaching Jesus was god and created Christianity after Jesus' death and converted jews to Christianity, some by force, preaching the "gospel" that Jesus was god. For Jews to believe that Jesus was god is idolatry, in contradiction with the highest belief in the Jewish faith that God is One and there is no other God but Hashem. Idolatry is one of the three biggest sins that a Jew can commit. It is called in Hebrew "Avodah zarah" which means idol-worship. Every person can believe what he/she feels is correct in their conscience, but if a Jew believes that God is three persons (the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit),then what kind of Jew is he?Not Christian?

wow

let's get more like our friend from the netherlands

WOW, we get readers even from the Netherlands? This is a WONDERFUL site, and unites us all together and gets us thinking about G-d and spirituality. As a matter of fact, one of the mitzvahs is to talk about Him from morning until night. So. even though people who post may disagree, we get to tell our viewpoints. It is amazing! As a 63 year old (64 next month), I remember BEFORE there was even an internet which existed. You know what? These are questions that, in my Jewish community, would NEVER have been uttered out of either prejudice or fear. Mazeltov to whomever originated Chabad.Org! Again, amazing ideas on this site!!!! BTW, I just spoke with a pastor of a Christian church who wanted me to visit. I had known him from when I was tripping into Christianity. I told him I was Jewish and he said how G-d loves His Jewish people, and that's why they have so many troubles. They were meant to be killed by Christians in the past. Until he said that, I would have gone to visit. Hmm.

I feel fanaticism and fundamentalism in ANY religion leads to problems, misunderstanding and intolerance.
I think it is not necessary to accept each others believes, but it is necessary to respect them.
I think that if a Jew wants to learn about Jesus and this makes him or her a more complete and better person, it is a wonderful thing.
i think that if a Christian wants to practice some of the peaceful ways of Buddha and this will help him becoming a better person, it is wonderful.
Religion is about making choices, it is about a deep and truthful wish of meeting G-d, of understanding His wishes for our individual lives. Religion is about seeking what He wants for us.
I believe that if we are sincere in our quest to serve and honour Him, there are many ways to find Him.
As for the Rabbi who wrote this article, I regret the sarcasm. If it is not your cup of tea, that's fine. But from a Rabbi, I just wasn't expecting the sarcasm, I guess.
(i know, you're human too, but still...)

The main thing to ask yourself when deciding what religion to follow is this:
Does this religion seem to make me a better person?
Does it help the people I see following to lead better lives than others and become more moral?
And if following Judaism and believing in Jesus provides the answer yes to both of the above questions, then Judaism and believing in Jesus is fine.
But if the religion does not make even the dog and cat of a man better for it, I would not give anything for that religion.
But do not fret over which one is correct and or true.
You will go crazy
Just study and study and i would ask myself
In which study do I feel more peace with myself and with others?
More love of life and people?
Which one gives me a spring in my step and well being?

If your friend had opened his heart to his son and still loved him no matter what religion he chose, then they would have been close until the end. Your friend CHOSE to have his heart broken because of his stubborn stance on wanting his son to be what he wanted him to be. Not unlike when a father disowns his son if he chooses to live a homosexual lifestyle. It is ROTTEN that parents who are Orthodox or in other ways strict in Judaism are willing to take the stance of thinking it is SEPARATION when a child chooses another way of life or another religion. It does not have to be that way. On the other hand, the Jews for Jesus people and other very orthodox Christians do tell you to choose Jesus over your parents. In fact, there is a song, "Jesus is my mother, my father, my sister and my brother, he's everything to me". It may be that the son rejected the father instead of the other way around. If so, yes, it was very sad. I'm sorry about that.

I had a Jewish friend in Johannesburg. His son, in his teen years was looking for answers to religious questions that bothered him. He went to Orthodox Rabbis but their answers did not satisfy him, he then went to a Conservative Rabbi whith the same result and to Reform Rabbi with disastrous results. He could not find answers to his religious concerns. My friend's son had a Christian girlfriend who told him to go to Jews for Jesus and he was embraced by them with deceptive tricks. Initially, he was told he can keep on being a Jew as long as he accepts jc, But later on, he was sent to the USA to attend courses and eventually he ordained as a Christian priest, which he is until this day. My friend died sadly and heart broken seeing his son converting to Christianity and becoming a Christian priest.
I lost contact with my friend's son but I only know that he has his own parish in Johannesburg and is a religious leader having ordained as the main priest in the Church. Very sad story.

It's strange, but in the library, religion and mythology are grouped in the same category. When I asked why, the librarian explained that WE believe our religion (whomever is saying it's their religion) is the TRUE one. She explained in old days, mythology WAS a religion to someone. Interesting. In that venue, anyone can believe in anything. Again, I think the question is not CAN, but SHOULD a Jew believe in Jesus.Then, in WHAT WAY should a Jew believe in Jesus. As an historical figure who existed? As a rebel? As a reformer? I asked a Christian who is ABSOLUTELY sure Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever, if he will be wearing the same clothing as he did when he returns. He said YES. Sandals, a dress? YES. He'll still spit in someone's eye to heal blindness? YES. I said, "He'd be put into jail". He said that magically, people will see him as god and he won't be put into jail. Hmmm.

Okay Michael Sanders!
Why all this Kvetching? (Yiddish word that means complaining and worrying) You are all tied up in knots -- why?
Find a chabad near you--maybe you have to travel a bit to Raleigh or Asheville. So what. When i wanted to learn about the "real Judaism" I went up to Brooklyn and studied with the Rebbe (he shoudl rest in peace) of blessed memory.
So go and learn. Out here in Calif we have some Christian people in the Tanach class and in the Kaballa class, so nobody minds. Even once a nun came to classes. It is all good. And you should learn and decide for yourself.
Pray to G-d all the time.
Take what is helping you to be a better person.
Follow the inklings becasue G-d put them in you to follow.
Do not deny yourself--you are what He created you as, be the best you can be!
Learn.
If you do not find a Rabbi to teach you, come back here --I would like to know about it!

Can you be a Jew and not know it? Yes. For so many years, it was unsafe to be Jewish, so many Jews HID their identity and did not TELL their children they were Jewish. Thus, the 'lost tribes". You may be. In my opinion, MOST people on this earth may be. After all, we were the wanderers, right? We went EVERYWHERE!

I hope that no one takes offence at this but I have been reading my volume of Victor Neuburg's Neo-Pagan poems and it is nice to get away from both Christianity and Judeism for a while.

If Jesus were the Moshiach or a candidate, then his purpose was learning and teaching the Torah. Ergo, belief in Jesus should be belief in the Torah.

Even if one separated Jesus the Jew from Jesus the myth, the Torah is still the point. A Jew already has the Torah with or without Jesus.

Historically, there has been antagonism between the Jews and Christians. According to strict Jewish Orthodoxy, the answer is very stern. When I became a Christian at 21 y.o., my mother wanted to follow the orthodox tradition of having me declared dead. She took me to a reform rabbi, who would not do that. In fact, he asked me some questions, and when I told him I still considered myself to be Jewish and that I only believe there is one G-d, he said that my mom should be glad that at least I'm in an organized religion. He said I could have chosen many worse ways to live my life, like becoming a drug addict. For the 30 years or so I thought I was a Jewish Christian, I never gave up my Judaism. Other Jews may have rejected me, but I didn't reject them, and in fact, came to the realization that if individuals in both religions have love in their hearts, then they have G-d in their hearts. I thank you for your comments.

I see a lot of complaining here, but the questions is: Can a Jew believe in Jesus?

I ask the question. If one is born a Jew or converts, who/what can stop you from being Jewish? If you stop following the laws, commandments, etc. are you not still a Jew. If not so then tell me one person that keeps all the commandments, etc 100% of the time. A Jew is allowed to believe/study what a Jew wants to. A Jew is still a Jew. Can G-d stop being G-d?

We were brainwashed into believing that the more people you can "save" (convince), the more stars you will have in your crown when you get to Heaven. Also, if you can "save" (convert) a Jew, those get you double points, because there is a superstition that when all the Jews get converted, Moshiach will "return" to earth to bring peace...after Armageddon, of course.

1. "Excuse me. I talk to G-d and G-d talks to me every day. Unless you are G-d, it is not appropriate for me to discuss my beliefs with you."
2. "Thank you for your concern. I will think about it. Good bye."
3. "You have certainly done your job. Please tell your pastor you are doing great, and I'm sure you are a wonderful person, but I don't discuss my private matters with strangers."
4. This is not an appropriate time for debating religion. Thank you, though, for your thoughts. Then, take anything free they want to give you and throw it out if you don't want to read it. Again, you can always say, "Please leave me alone. You are invading my private space."

1. You say, "Yes, I am saved". It's none of their business how you've been saved- the dentist could have saved a tooth. Saying "Yes" and "Thank you for your concern" should shut them up.
2. You can say, "I'd love to stay and chat but I just don't have time right now. If you will excuse me." and walk away.
3. You can say, if you want to argue, "I don't have to be grafted into G-d's people. I was born that way."

When a Jew converts to Christianity, he or she is still a Jew in his/her heart. Come Easter time, there is no way to hear about the Crucifixion without CRINGING inside your heart. You also are ripe to hearing things that other people think of Jews, which are stereotypes and very shocking. In the end, people may SAY they are not Jewish, UNTIL they get older and begin to long for their Jewish roots. AHA! That is when they begin to come back to Judaism.

"They do usually have a token Jewish member, who is invariably either ignorant of Judaism at best or psychologically imbalanced at worst. They are a sham."

Harsh comments. But worse, inaccurate. To blanketly label all these converts "INVARIABLY" ignorant or psychologically imbalanced shows a lack of sincere objectivity and confidence in the faith. Only those who are afraid need resort to such vitriolic and baseless accusations.

It's the word "CAN". CAN a Jew believe in Jesus? Of course in that the word can means able. If you asked SHOULD a Jew believe in Jesus, then may you can say, "NO NO NO". Jews fall for all sorts of hype in all ways of life. Should they? That is a different question.

No, no, no and did I mention NO?

In fact, IF Jesus was an actual historical figure, then we can OF COURSE believe he existed! We believe other historical figures existed, too. I don't believe he began Christianity, OR that he thought of himself as non-human. In fact, he wanted all of us to be children of G-d JUST AS he was. It was OTHER PEOPLE who took and ran with the hype. I think Jesus got a bad rap by others SAYING he was more than human and claiming all sorts of miracles. He was more like ELVIS. People swooned at his presence. Some people think Elvis is also non-human. I take the good in every religion & learn from it.

I met a Catholic girl who told me my Jewish heritage had been stolen from me and offered to go WITH me to Chabad in Riverside so I can get back to my roots. She said if I don't tell anyone I believe in Jesus I'll be ok. I went, and loved it, and asked some pertinent questions. Satisfied that Jesus was NOT the Messiah, I decided to stay and told my friend I cannot be a hypocrite, and am not Christian any more. At that point, she said I was dangerous. I lost her as a friend. But, I found my Jewish neshama (soul).

Oh, yes, there ARE Buddhist Jews, I met them. There are Jews who believe in magic, superstition, numerology. There are Jews who accept the weirdest ideologies and religions and still believe they are Jewish. It seems the ONLY religion you can't be along with Jewish is Christian. You just haven't met these people. In Los Angeles, you meet EVERY combination you can imagine!

It was also a social statement, because back then Blacks could not go to White churches. So, I figured, I would integrate a Black church. (In the Apostolic Christian religion, there were two separate- and I believe they are still this way- organizations in higher management. The white one and the black one). Back in the 60's, that's how it was. I helped this one storefront church grow by participating in barbecue and cooking fund raisers, into one of the now huge monstrosities, and was proud of my role. I also helped convert two other Jewish girls. One married an Arab and they formed their own church. It's still going on. The other died of breast cancer. Because I had been mostly brought up as a child by Orthodox grandparents, I very much missed my Yiddishkite soul's yearnings. So, after marriage, when I had my sons, I decided they will KNOW they are Jewish, and I tip-toed back into Judaism slowly. My husb. didn't understand. He was still sort of Christian.(A hypocrite, doing evil).

The one great thing about Jews for Jesus and many "born again" Christian religions is their MUSIC. It draws, it's enticing, it touches the very innards of our need for rhythm. I do miss that now that I have turned back again to Judaism. At 21 y.o., I became Christian by default. Abused/neglected by parents, torn away from B'nai B'rith volunteering by parents. (Mom's favorite word: FEH!)I found a new family in Christianity. They called each other Mother so and so, Sister so and so and Brother so and so. One of the songs that drew me (not one that I miss) was Jesus is Everything to Me (my mother, my father, my sister and my brother). That acceptance drew me. Not the ideology. But, I became brainwashed while attending the services. (If I get cut off here, I will post a second time to continue.) In time, I became a preacher and did very unsafe things such as standing on a bus bench in a high crime area, telling people they must repent and be baptised or they will go to Hell.

If the so-called Jews for Jesus were honest, they would call themselves Christians for Jesus because they may be many things, but Jewish they are NOT. It is just as absurd to have a group called Buddhists for Jesus or Muslims for Hinduism..One who changes religions is no longer of their previous religion, period. Jews who get horn swaggled (sorry, I'm a Jewish Texan) into believing that Jesus can be and is the "needed" blood sacrifice becomes a Christian and is no longer a Jew.
If a blood sacrifice was required, there might be something to think about, but NO BLOOD ATONEMENT IS REQUIRED for the forgiveness of sins. And when blood WAS necessary, it was to atone for an UNINTENTIONAL sin only. Today, while we have no temple, obtaining forgiveness is a matter of turning away from the broken mitzvahs and completely turning away from what one has been doing. Look at Jonah, did the people of Nineveh have to make a sacrifice? No, repented and were forgiven by G-d.

"why is it impossible to be a Jew that believes Moshiah has already come?"

It's possible - for a Jew who hasn't studied the messianic prophesies in the Hebrew Bible. A better question would be - How is it possible to read the messianic prophesies of Isaiah, Ezekiel et al and believe that the Messiah has already come?

In fact, it is this very problem that compelled the Church to invent the notion of a Second Coming (nowhere to be found in the Hebrew Scriptures as it won't be necessary).

I don't know much about "Jews for Jesus" but I am a Christian working at a Jewish school. I agree that mainstream Christianity is missing out by not participating in the parts of Judaism, things that Jesus would have taken part in.... "all the difficult parts and all the joys..." At the same time, why is it impossible to be a Jew that believes Moshiah has already come? I guess what I really want to know is, is there no way I can have the best of both worlds?

Believe presumably means believe that Jesus was the Massiah rather than just believe that Jesus existed, etc. Ex-Jews can believe Jesus to be the Messiah, and if those ex-Jews wish they can continue living a Jewish life, but such people are only Jewish in the sense of having a Jewish mother. In one sense a Jew can believe in Jesus, but in another sense he cannot. It was probably questions like this that made Lazars Roitshvanze leave the stettle.

Well, I read this with interest because I, too, have run into these Jews for Jesus people on the street in NYC and on the subways there.
they are funny. They use humor in thier little leaflets.
But you are right, they are not trying to get people to really be Jews for Jesus. They are trying to convert them.
While it is true and very horrible that Christianity has caused so much Jewish blood to be shed, the history of Christianity also includes the shed blood of many other peoples all over the world.
Can a Jew believe in Jesus. How could you not? He did exist. There is no doubt of that.
But he never said to forsake the law of Moses. that part is the biggest con in history. Paul made this new religion marketable by taking away all the difficult aspects of becoming Jewish and he also took away all the joys. To make it easier for gentiles to join.
However, Jesus actually never taught anything about making a church or giving up festivals and Kashruth.

The editor wrote:

-
"Editor's Response:
The answer is simple: This is not a religion. It's a people. You can be the pope and if your mother was Jewish you're still Jewish. "
-

Really? Sounds like a contradiction. The article states:

".. All these attempts have had little or no success. Whether religious or not, Jews are reluctant to give up their Jewishness"
--

That sounds, that if you convert, you lose your "Jewishness".

That "singe people" notion contradicts another article too. This one:

chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/498027/jewish/Are-Jews-a-Race.htm

Quote:

-----
While the Jewish people began with the descendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, many people have converted to become Jews over the millennia--beginning with the "mixed multitude" that came with us out of Egypt. Today there are African Jews, Japanese Jews, even Eskimo Jews. It seems difficult to call such a mixture a "race".

it is true that we are all created by a creator!! but then why is it that some have many different beliefs?? are there many creators?? how could this happen??

I've went through a crazy amount of changes in my life. I was raised a Christian, then became involved in Messianic 'Judaism' (if you want to call it that) it was ironic, but all my studying of Torah that I did while I believed the Messianic way eventually made me realize my belief in Jesus had been false for quite some time. Now I'm a convert to Judaism. Looking back at what I was from this side now I can't believe what I used to hold as truth. It's just so obvious to me now that its false. Once you get your head out of that strict mind of Christian thinking only then do you really start to learn.

The Rabbi is very right about the few Jewish leaders in these organizations, they ARE either ignorant of Judaism or had some bad experience with it. I have found that to be the case for many of the higher ups that I knew.

Jesus was a Jew, so this hostility is upsetting to me. I was raised as a Catholic and neither the priests or the sisters ever belittled the Jews or Judaism. We are all part of the Creator so why can't a person believe another has divinity in them. I don't understand why this world has to separate themselves over issues of faiths and religions. As long as we try to be altruistic is all that matters.

Are we talking about Jewishness or Judaism ? I thought Judaism is wisdom for every person. I don't see how one could lose ones Jewishness. I see other Jews & being jewish is who one is. Dosn't jewishness come from the inside & shines outwardly as lampstand.

Rabbi Simcha Maier Pearlmutter stated that
"Christianity did not build upon its Jewish foundation. It completely eschewed that Jewish base and built for itself a structure that is totally and fully a competitive, antagonistic institution in relationship to Judaism. One need only refer to the earliest conmmentaries of the Church Fathers themselves to verify this fact, which is not open to debate since the evidence is all in."

I am not sure I understand why so many responses seem hostile against Jews for Jesus? Living in the Chicago area, I can meet Jews for Jesus, Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Har Krishnas, Catholic Knights of Columbus, and Baptist missionaries all on the same day walking through the city. I have always been open and polite to people and have never encountered any problems. What is the big deal if a religious person of a different faith tries to talk to you or hand you a flyer about their group? If you are not interested you can always say so and walk away.

difficult one this sensitive area i am a jew with many christian friends i feel some of the comments are a little pointless. Let's stop arguing for a moment let me just say lets look at a dutch christian lady in the second world war named corrie ten blom, she was a 18 year old girl who with her father also a christian put there lives at risk and led the dutch resistance smuggling jews underground to safety they had to hide in their loft each night sharing food praying together and having deep faith with god. my point is they were jews and christians together believing in one god for their strength.

she was caught and tortured with members of her family with her sister dying from the terrible conditions. she never gave up on her love and devotion of protecting our people i think we have a lot to learn from this remarkable person who went on to open safe houses and rest homes for jews after the war...

Shannon, What is your point? Would like to respond appropriately but not sure what you are trying to express. can you quote scripture to interpret scripture - that works best. Thanks.

The topic is Jesus vs. the Jewish scriptures. The claim is that the New Testament simply dovetails the old, or is a fulfillment of the Torah.

If you begin to deny even the basic belief that the Torah is true, or that there even is a God... there's no need to continue the discussion.

One has to have something to go back to. An original to base the additions on (as Christianity claims the NT does).

Moses was absolutely REAL

It is interesting to me that you bring up historical records outside of the Bible and the Torah. I just heard someone on TV suggesting that Moses was not a real actual person but merely a symbolic representation of Jewish faith. Was Moses a real living person who walked with G-d or just a story to educate Jewish children?

Yes and no. Ethnically, I was born a full blooded Jew -- both on my mother's side and my father's side. Ours was a secular jewish home solidly rooted in secular jewish American culture. In midlife, I put my faith in Jesus and joined a church. Obviously I am no longer a Jew religiously (I really never was) and to regularly attend and affiliate with a synagogue makes no sense. We are not co-religionsists. However, ethnically, I'm as Jewish as I ever was. Should Nazism ever resurface (an extreme example) I would be targeted for persecution like any other Jew. And there's nothing I like more than a good rye bread. I always serve food at a party. And I still cringe whenever I hear some racist jerk make a comment about "the Jews." So you tell me -- even though I believe in Jesus, aren't I still Jewish? I don't expect to be embraced by the synagogue . . . but you'd be surprised how the Jews who always knew you still treat you as one of their own.

Ezekiel 18:4 "For all lives are mine; the life of the father is like the life of the son, both are mine; only the one who sins shall die." I think this verse means that rather than fighting over whether Christians, Jews, or Mouslims are right and which are wrong, we should focus on whether or not we are virtuous before the Lord G-d. I applaude anyone who can really follow their own faith without being a fake hypocrite. Focus on your own relationship with G-d. Do you really love G-d with all of your heart, mind, and soul? Is it actually possible for anyone to love one's neighbors like oneself? But if you absolutely must judge another person's faith, judge fairly (verse 8). Happy Holidays.

When searching for "historical references to Jesus" I find quite a different story and in fact can't figure out what you may be finding. I find the exact opposite.

There are NO contemporanius historic writings about Jesus. No historian or writer wrote about Jesus IN HIS TIME. The first historic reference to him are near the end of the first century, which are slight and highly questionable.

Josepheus for instance, who wrote 2 sentences refrencing such a man, was born in the year 37, nowhere near the time of Jesus.

I traveled with my father (an Assemblies of God evangelist) since I was a young girl, later joining his ministry and then off on my own in Messianic Synagogues.

My negative statements are not directed towards Christianity in general, but rather Jewish evangelism. There are many very good Christians out there who have respect and love for the Jewish people and people in general.

Then there are those who are completely intolerant, teaching that the whole world must conform to their own religious beliefs or face eternal damnation.... it's those people that offensively harass the Jewish people and bring about such a negative view of a supposid peaceful and accepting religion.

Hugs go out to all the true Christian Zionists who support the Jewish people, refrain from evangelizing, and do so without an agenda.

There is plenty of historical writings about Jesus, more than for many other historic figures who are accepted as genuine. to say "there are NO historic references" is at best ignorance and at worst and outright lie.
For some reason this forum does not allow links that I wanted to post (which is strange) but, anyway, simply do a search for "historical references to Jesus" and also "Acts of Pontius Pilate" and you will find many.

Shannon, I see you have quite a bit of negative things to say about Christians and Jews for Jesus - you seem to very enjoy this. Curious as to what kind of ministry you were involved in to the Jewish people and what church did you attend.

We could go back & forth over his existence, but the real fact of the matter is... "Is he who he claimed to be?"

If he is not the Messiah, why does anything else matter?

Christians who end up leaving when they discover this struggle with this more than anything else.

It's simply difficult to let go of something you've put so much into, so much emotional attachment to, and many times it's been the focal point of that person's life.

It's heart wrenching and traumatic when that core is stripped away.

But at the same time, it's freeing and worth the discovery.

My advice to anybody that's really searching this subject: Pour all of your energy into studying Torah... true Torah. Don't rely on Christian translations (as written & chosen by the catholic church). Get it direct from the Hebrew. There's a library here at chabad.org for those who need a true translation - go to the LIBRARY section.

People & events are documented as fact by recorded documents.

Jews happen to be one of the best cultures for documenting everything. If it happened, it's documented. Funny that all of this took place, yet they don't record any Jesus. There's only one reference in talmudic sources that reference any such man and the timing of that reference don't match the supposed historic Jesus.

Other than the New Testament, there are no historic references to his existance... and certainly not to the scale that's reported in the NT. Considering all of the great writers of that time, isn't that strange?

The New Testament reports that after the resurrection, 500 people were raised from the dead. I have a hard time believing that the chaos that would surround 500 people coming back to life, dead spouses coming back to married wives, dead children returning to families... just from a hereditary standpoint, is it possible for that type of event to not be recorded anywhere else?!?!?!

OK, Jesus did exist from a historical perspective. How does that mean he's anything more than a normal man???
Regarding time, there are several calendar systems in use worldwide.
It's currently 1428 in the moslem year, 5769 in the Jewish year. India used to have around 30 different date systems. And, many more worldwide. The Western calendar is now a universal standard as it prevents confusion in business dealings - nothing else. So, religious systems/leaders have indeed caused different time systems to be established.
It's difficult to tell whether Jesus was a spiritual teacher any more than any other rural rabbi of that time. After all, most of the belief structure didn't exist until the Council of Nicea in 325 C.E. The attendees decided for themselves what they wanted the public to believe. Much earlier material was excluded and significant new "invented" material was added in order to reinforce the power of the clergy.
So, maybe respect for Jesus as a man, but not as a son of God.
Judaism was given by God directly to man, all other middle-eastern religions of that time and later, were created by men, generally to further their own political adgenda/power base. Judaism is therefore the only contender for a true religion.

I am a Gentile (I think) raised by a father who told me from a young age to deeply respect and love the Jews and his only friends were Jewish. I think my Father read the Bible more than anyone I ever met, he died when I was 18 and my Mother sent me to Lutheran school which taught me to search the scriptures for in them were life and godliness and that all the scriptures were true holy and without error. So I am 57 and still searching the Word and it is Alive and I love this Chabad site where I can learn what the descendants of the writers learn and what they believe and I find love and truth on every page. I absolutely love reading on here daily. Thank you. You are answering my questions I have had since a small child. I number my days by your calendar and I feel silly but I bring in the Shabbat and Holy Days alone. Balance is finally coming into my life. Can I be Jewish somehow?

I think it would be silly for anyone not to "believe in" Jesus, as if referring to him as the Easter Bunny or Tooth Fairy. It's a historical fact that Jesus was here, and I think the fact that the whole world recognizes the year we are in is pretty amazing in itself. There has been no other spiritual teacher in history who has changed time.

So I think the real question is, can a Jew "believe Jesus". Why not? He provided alot of reasons for us to believe. Maybe what these Jewish converts expereinced was real. Why not at least show them the respect you wish to be shown as well...?

It strikes me that most correspondents are from North America and as such do not know about European things, for example if you travel about Europe you will find a notable absence of Jews in many parts of Europe, and this absence is not because European Jews converted to Christianity. Nazi idiology was such that only two very small minorities of Jews were given immunity from extermination, but this did not apply to J's for J who would most certainly would have been exterminated if the Nazis had conquered the U.K. Incidentally not a few Nazis were church going Christians, J,s for J reflect upon this! I also think that Zionism failed European Jews in their hour of need. If the Jewish state was established anywhere else, even say if an Aleutian island was given to Jews as an independent Jewish state it could have provided passports and visas. Small isles like Singapor also show that a small island can support a large population, and what about Long Island NY? Millions of Jews live on it.

im a 19yr old muslim girl turn ed to Jesus. i've been to churches and i know islam very well. my only conclusion is religion is man made. would u say all buddhist would go to hell just because they dont believe in God? we are all created in God's image. and he wants to magnify his greatness in us. thats all. so if a buddhist keeps his precepts and are good towards others(his neighbors), then God's personality is maginified in him. peace, love and harmony are the teachings of buddhism. i think its better that we start living that way than to argue over our differences. in the end, we are all one. we are all connected to each other. nothing lasts, only God remains. think about it.

There are just two points. First you have to define what belief means. All Christians have to accept the Nicene Creed, this is called the catholicity (i.e. universality) of faith. No Jew can accept the Nicene creed. This leaves us with the question, was Jesus a Zadok, if so then it is possible to pray to Jesus in order to petition G-d. But this is not Christian belief in Jesus. Second, it is not a ploy for a believer in Jesus, nio matter whether a Christian or not, to adopt a Jewish name and way of life, the reason for this is because Jesus taught that such people will gain a high place in the 'Kingdom of G-d'. The question is, to what extent is the Rabbinical tradition to be followed for a non-Jewish, or even a Jewish believer in Jesus. Now what seems to happen is this, some Jews convert to Christianity, and those who become Protestant find that they can legitimately practice to a greater or lesser extent their former faith. Also some Protestants in Catholic countries adopt a Jewish life-style as part of their expression of their Christian faith, but they are persecuted by their Catholic neighbours, fo they go the whole way and adopt Judeism. They are then recognized as Jews by the State of Israel in the attempt to bump up the number of Jews. I hope that this helps people to understand this twilight zone between Judeism and Christianity a little bit better. G-d bless and keep the hettle boiling.

pity all the replies seem to have been written by this J4J cult.

Why can't they believe whatever illogical material they want without feeling the need to ram it down everybody else's throats?

It's not a case of Jesus's merits and/or claim to be Moshiach, it's the "holier than thou attitude".

you should have been a politician. Attack Jews for Jesus (of which i am not a member) pait them as sly, deluded(stupid), and people who exploit the weak and elderly. inflammatory tactics for sure but just try answering the actual question instead and we would all be a little more impressed and actual dialogue could occur. Whatever your beliefs this editors reply is worthy of a second grader.

"Of course a Jew can believe in Jesus. ... As long as logic and clear thinking are suspended"

You're response to an honest question is to slander fellow Jews who *do* believe that Jesus is the Moshiach, then go on to confuse the issue by wasting most of your answer talking about the "Jews of Jesus" sect.

What kind of example do you think you're setting to others by dismissing such a serious issue as the Moshiach and whether or not Jesus of Nazareth was the Anointed One?

I find it very disturbing to see this level of ignorance at a place where people go for wisdom.

It's difficult to ignore them when you have groups that are so "in your face".

Groups like this target Jewish areas specifically. They go door to door, they browse the Kosher groceries, they are taught to attend JCC events, visit synagogues, blend in and befriend people in order to share "Messiah", they even disrupt the most holy places, like the Western Wall.

Shouldn't a Jew be able to pray at this precious site and not have to deal with the harassment, being tapped on the shoulder during prayer and asked "Do you know Yeshua?"

In my opinion, Jews have "ignored" them for too long. I admire the groups who stand up to them, tell them their not welcome, remove them from our synagogues, ect.

Even as a Christian (not just my name), I have to agree with the Editor here. It sickens me when I see 'fellow' Christians trying to slyly convert others. So it is best to ignore them. I'm pretty sure it says in both Jewish and Christian teaching that God commands us to love our neighbors, and this Jews for Jesus group seem to be doing the opposite.

Faith is not a toy you can throw away, its what you believe.

You ended your comment with:
the original apostles may have (mistakenly) thought Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah, but that doesn't mean they thought he was G-d, does it?
The answer is Yes. The fundamental belief of Chriatianity is that Jesus is God. The trinity concept that every denomination accepts. It's only Jehovah Witness' and some Seven Day Adventists that don't agree with the trinity (3 in one god-head). He is equal to the father and I'm sure you noticed uplifted hands in a praise & worship service. They worship G-d, but you'll also hear them worshiping and ending every prayer "in the name of Jesus". That's where they're wrong and it becomes Idolitry.
He is G-d and G-d alone, beside him there is no other.

"All religions are free to present their beliefs in the open market of ideas."

I was just wondering if you believe that all religions lead to God, or do only Jews get to go to heaven? Just wondering....

I can't agree with Christian theology. Heck, I'm having a hard enough time believing all the teachings of Judaism! My neighbor goes to one of those Jewish churches or Christian synagogues or whatever. As a history buff, I kind of respect where he is coming from. He wants to practice Christianity in as pure & original form as possible. He see the Catholic Church as too Paganized, so he goes to the Judeo-Christian congregation so as to trace Christianity back to its Jewish roots. The curiosity got the better of me, and I attended one of their services. I would have to describe them as Born-Again Christians in skull-caps and prayer shawls. The problem is that things have changed since 2000 years ago; the original apostles may have (mistakenly) thought Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah, but that doesn't mean they thought he was G-d, does it?

Why is it that Christianity believes that Jews are overlooked by G-d if they do not accept Christ? And believe in some rapture that discriminates the Jewish people. Its insulting to try and use Judaism to base your faiths roots and disregard it and the Jewish people at the same time. G-d's promise to the Jewish people is never changing and eternal. I think that Christianity gives people the notion that G-d does not forgive. Then they ask about animal sacrifice. But the question is...If animal sacrifice is the only way to gain forgiveness. Then, Why did G-d send a man to die for your sins? I know many good Christians and not all are uneducated completely. But at the same time they believe that Jesus was sent as a way for the Gentiles. Its more questions then answers. I love one G-d and see one way and that is Judaism.

Hosea 2

The number of the people of Isreal shall be like that of the sands of the sea, which cannot be measured or counted; and instead of being told "You are not my people," they shall be called Children of the living G-d.

It is a little known fact that there are (or used to be) some very fundamentalist Protestant sects, e.g. the "Old School Baptists," who did not believe in "converting" others or prosyletizing. The early Baptists were very big believers in freedom of conscience. The following was written by an obscure Baptist minister, Robert I. Devin, in North Carolina in 1880: "God alone is the great arbiter of conscience, having given to no created being, be he prince or potentate, any authority to say what religious faith a man must possess." Further, "No mortal man has any right to settle the religious opinions of other persons." And, "Soul-liberty is the inalienable right of every human being." In case you think he is just talking about being a Baptist vs. a Methodist, he talks about people having every right to be Pagans or Infidels if they so choose.

All I can say is, it is too bad that this laudable point of view has been almost entirely forgotten by Baptists and "Evangelicals" today

It's funny that there is no such an organisation as 'Moses for Christians' to counter the 'Jews for Jesus' thing. Abridged copies of the Talmud could be handed out in places where Christians congregate, and easy access walk-in shools could be provide, and so on.

Ok, guys. I'm really confused here. Would someone from Chabad please let me know what the minimum "belief" requirements are in order for me to be considered a Jew. Here in Tel Aviv, I am surrounded by Jews (by birth, as am I) who are Buddhists, 'New-Agers', Secular, Agnostic, and even Atheistic. Since everyone seems so focused on why those who accept Jesus as the Messiah are no longer Jews as they do not hold to the 'central tenants of Judaism', I need help flushing this one out. Who else is precluded from this list -- and is no longer considered a Jew? Let's all come to an agreement on this, shall we?

Dear Anonymous in Israel,

Explaining to Christians why a Jew rejects Jesus is easier said than done.

I'm a former Christian as well and for some time was involved in a ministry to the Jews. I personally faced the arguments on a nearly daily basis and know for a fact that I wasn't going to hear anything until I was ready. I'm finding the same for Christian friends, especially Jewish-Christian friends whom I wish would listen.

Christianity is very much an emotional religion. Emotional blinders are near impossible to penetrate. Until that person is willing to remove the blinder to even give the other side a glance, they'll continue to live in that world.

Believe me, I desperately wish it were as simple as having patience and explaining things better. It's painful to see so many Jewish friends in the church, some of which I feel somewhat responsible for.

Shalom,

I was born into a Roman Catholic family but never believed it - mainly the statues thing. At 17 I became a Born-again Christian, but Jewish things called to me so I began to preach the keeping of Shabbat and Jewish feasts.

I came to Israel and fell in love with it. Shotly after I found out I am Jewish.

I am now trying to find documentary proof of this because I want to live Jewish. However, I think our people should make a more concrete effort in explaining why they do not believe in Jesus to their brethren who do instead of rejecting them and giving up on them.

There was no disrespect for Christianity in this article. Jews for Jesus are a deceptive organization that claims that Christianity is Judaism. Anyone who believes that is at best ignorant.
Jews cannot believe in Jesus, because he didn't fulfill the Torah's criteria for a messiah, hence he was a false messiah. The claim of divinity is even more incompatable with Judaism, as it contradicts several principle beliefs in the Torah about G-d, such as that He has no form, is One, and that there is no need for an intermediary between man and G-d.
I hope this helps clear up some confusion.

A true convert is one that turns or changes from a lifestyle of sin to one of sincere repentance and commits to a religiously observant life.

Judaism, unlike Christianity and Islam, is not a proselytizing religion. Because it teaches that the righteous of all nations shall enter the gates of heaven, it does not have any compelling urge to rescue non-Jews from hell. Jews are instructed to open a willing convert with open arms.

Jews and Christians recognize that Jews were G-d's chosen people whom G-d reveals Him and His ways to as it is indicated in the Hebrew Bible (or Old Testament for Christians) But that does not mean Jews are superior to anyone else. (see "Are Jews the Chosen People?")

As shown in the books of Jonah and Ruth (themes of relations and repentance) G-d's mercy is inclusive, G-d is open to all peoples.

See also
"The Story of Your Life" on chabad.org

As a child of a roman catholic father and seventh day adventist mother, I was raised to love thy neighbor.

I am a Jewish convert. The conversion process feels like a homecoming for me.

I was raised roman catholic. I was confused by those who would act ung-dly outside of church justifying that a son of G-d saved them by dying for their sins. Faith is important but so is following the law. There can be no love without the law. How can you love someone if you're always breaking or violating their rules? Yes, humans aren't perfect. We're bound to make mistakes, stray off the righteous way, and take unrighteous detours but we must try to stay on the path that ultimately leads home, to G-d's heart.

When I first inquired about conversion, I was told that my name was of Hebrew origin. I was the only child of 5 who missed out on having a middle name. As a convert, I can select a Jewish one. I was born to be a Jew! That confirmed Jewish beliefs about mystical interpretation of conversions to Judaism, that a convert is someone w/ a Jewish neshama (soul) who is simply to find his/her way home.

Michael,

You must understand where the people you approach about learning Judaism are coming from.
Although I'm sure you see absolutely nothing wrong with learning the "roots of your faith", those exact words are used in the newer movements of "Messianic Judaism" and "Hebrew Christians". The focus of these groups are the same as Jews for Jesus.
Somebody walking in, proclaiming their Christian faith, a minister, wanting to learn about Judaism. Wouldn't that be like a wolf getting training from the sheep he's about to kill?
The hostility was recently explained to me a bit shockingly. To you, those words "Hebrew Christian", "Messianic", etc are not shocking.
Considering the damage these groups have done to the Jewish people though, it's like walking in and saying "I'm Hamass, and I'd like a schedule of your services just because I'm curious".
My suggestion would be to research the answers given by Jews for Judaism.

I belong to a local Episcopal congregation. The church has a Sedar Meal each year around Holy Week. I feel that, other than a teaching tool or an ethnic demonstartion, there is little to be gained for a Christian and perhaps it is an offense to the Jewish religion to "demonstrate" this, and have said so. How does the Jewish community look upon a Christian Church having a Sedar meal, (done I might add, with respect) ?

Jews for Jesus is a Baptist Christian organization

Because someone offers another person a new testament in yiddish that is considered a "slimy tatic"? could you please explain?
Though I am not a jew or represent "Jew for Jesus" I am a Christian (as are "Jews for Jesus") and believe him (Jesus) to be the true messiah. my belief in this does not cause me to in your words "suspend logic and clear thinking". I could make the same statement in regards to the Jewish faith but think it has no place in a open honest dialog and consider it rather insulting.
The reason this person in question attempted to give out a new testament is because he wants to share the good news of Jesus. If your not interested why not just nay "no thank you" and be done with it. "Jews for Jesus is in fact a jewish organization in which many in the organization are in fact Jewish contrary to your statement that they are "non jews who take on jewish names".. I respect your defending of your faith but please check your facts first.

I've always wondered how that worked, and although I share your opinion I could never word it as well. It makes me smile a lot to read this.

I undestand from the question, the answer, and the comments that the whole concept of Jews for Jesus is missleading and incorrect. My comment is that no one in the hundreds of words posted hear, addressed the question which I will repeat: Can a Jew believe in Jesus? If not (which seems to be the case), why? What is the great conflict/problem? Thank you and forgive my ignorance.

An article written on this very website by the Rabbi says, "a Jew never ceases to be a Jew, no matter what. Even if that Jew were to be an Ordained Catholic priest, he is still a Jew..."

The answer is very simple. Christians are ex-Jews who believe that Christ is the Messiah & Jews believe that he is not. So yes, the two are mutually exclusive because if you believe that Jesus was the Messiah, then you CAN'T be a non-secular Jew.

You're correct. Christians, and I am one, have innocent blood on our hands from stupid evil ignorance and WE DO OWE the Jews more than six million apologies. But how can an apology bring back those destroyed; living and dead? We need to do MORE than say we are sorry. We need to take care of and protect those which are alive. WE cannot FORGET either. If it's of any comfort to you who are Jews, I am truly sorry for those who claimed to be Christians and destroyed your people. It's my humble opinion that we need to repent on our faces in dust and ashes for the sins of our fathers. I have. I LOVE the Jews with all my heart. I would never insult them by trying to convert them. I would howerver, like to learn from them, the ways of Jews and G-D because I hunger to know and serve the G-D of Abraham, Issiac, and Jacob. I think we need to offer those in danger NOW around the world refuge and protection. You were hated without cause, NOW, may we love you, respect you, and protect you from evil?

How does Judaism regard Islam? Could they be regarded as "sister" faiths? I ask this only because I''ve heard Jews say that Muslims can be regarded as their brothers due to the similarities of the two religions. Lastly, for those who believe the two faiths are sisters, should Muhammed then be regarded as one of the prophets?

Anonymous, you say that:

"There are many Jewish men and women with doctoral and even rabbinical degrees that have joined Christian churches from their own convictions. To say that those who join a Christian church are 'ignorants' it is also an insult to million of Christians. It is not wise to use that kind of language."

First of all, even the most intelligent people can be fooled. In my opinion, anyone who has been tricked by the xian church is ignorant in at least one way.

Note: Please, do not get into 'name calling' if you cannot present a better argument. To refer to those Jewish men and women who have chosen to join a Christian church by insulting names, will not be helpful at all in the dialogue. There are many jewish men and women with doctoral and even rabbinical degrees that have joined Christian churches from their own convictions. To say that those who join a Christian church are 'ignorants' it is also an insult to million of Christians. It is not wise to use that kind of language.

the Xtianists?

One, the question of who is the Moshiach.

Two, the question over whether a divine essence can actually materialize itself in the flesh.

After all these years, the Xtianists continue to pester you over these questions.

Why don't they just take your word on it that there is a 'noahide law' against them committing idolatry (with no exception for the worship of the Galilean), and that the One True G-d can't be limited to a physical definition?

And why do Xtianists insist that what obviously started as the 'greek testament' and ended up in the hands of the Romans has to be Jewish?

Really, how did you get in the middle of it?

What will it actually take to get you out of the middle of it?

And ultimately the question is: Do you really need to wait for the Moshiach to answer all of the above?

This may be a bit brash- so consider yourself advised.

If Jesus was indeed the meshiach would we not be living in peaceful times? would not the tragic deaths of those fighting for peace in our world be unneccessary? would not all sinfinful ways have been unequivically absolved if Jesus was the meshiach?

Perhaps my expectations for meshiach are too high?

For a believer in Jesus to say... "wait for the second coming?" what kind of strange and circular argument is that? Jesus couldn't do the job the first time because he's not "the one."

Coming back (and I thought the argument was that he triumphed over death, so isn't he" here" alreay?) isn't going to give him super powers. And by this point, his neshema could've already returned- maybe a couple of times- and this "savior's" soul is not found repeated. My not uncommon guess is that he was a charismatic man in the right time and right place- not unlike any other cult leader. But that's a different discussion.

The reason why Jews don't believe in Jesus was not explained here.

If you study the early 11th - 13th century Catholic Church you will be horrified at the excesses performed by them in the name of religion. These people were criminals who robbed all and sundry, ordered Church Taxes to be paid by the poor, ordered freeholders' land to be confiscated, and who put down with the sword, stake, fire and torture chamber all forms of dissent. They couldn't care less about who they libelled, spited, spat on and forced to flee from their homes, and if a "solidarity with Christ pogrom" was required they knew who to rely on locally and who to imprison and rob. If you're attracted by Jews for Jesus, then you're sipping wine with Himmler, Heydrich and Shicklegruber and the devil. Just read any modern book on the religous wars for proof of what I say. In Jesus's name thousands of law abiding, peaceful Jews were murdered - so I think you should pass on this one. The so called Christians Churches owe the Jewish community 6 million apologies.

I have not had the pleasure of being accosted by anyone from Jews for Jesus but no doubt it will happen one day. I have, however, had many discussions with J-'s Witnesses and other born again Christian religions.
I was brought up in a Christian environment. I think I know the Christian gospel well, certainly well enough to argue back with J-'s Witnesses. I challenge anyone to point anything out to me that is opposed to Jewish thinking in any of the four gospels that are commonly available (apart from things that are obviously false such as the crucifiction story and the Roman governor washing his hands etc..) Jesus, if he existed, was clearly a reforming Jew who at all times encouraged people to obey the law of Moses.
By insulting the opinions of others we do ourselves down and it is our duty to respect other people if we do not agree with them and even if they do not respect us. Our obligation is to show by example and not by resorting to a holier than you attitude.

I have just read your article and agree that using slimy tactics to convert people to Christianity is wrong. I am a catholic by birth and contrary to our beliefs I think it is not our job to convert anybody, G_d put us where we are for a reason although i sometimes wish I was born Jewish it is G_ds will not mine. I love my Jewish neighbors and respect their traditions both written and oral. I have a Stone Edition Chumash and look forward to purchasing a Talmud so I can continue learning about the wonderful traditions of Judaism. Shalom.

Michael Sanders, you will not be so tormented, if you convert to Judaism. Judaism is not an intellectual exercise. You have to live it and believe in it, to understand it. To say you "understand" Judaism, because you spoke to Jewish people, or Jewish wise men, is a cop-out. I am sorry, the bottom line is, you must commit yourself to Judaism. Then you will find happiness.

For over two year I have been wandering in a wilderness. My faith was eroding and I was struggling deeply. Add to that the fact that I am an ordained Christian Pastor as well as a trained theologian and church historian and the light gets dimmer.

It has been through my study of Judaism that my faith has begun to be strengthened. It is through a consciouse rooting out and rejection of the Helenistic and Constantinian influences on my faith that I have once again begun to seek G-d and rejoice in Him.

In short, it is through learning (slowly and awkwardly) about the roots of my faith that hope once more shines. I have been undone and redone by what I have discovered and am discovering.

My wife's heritage is Jewish and my father always maintained we were of Jewish descent. I have always had an unexplainable love for Israel and a sense of awe about the Tanak. I feel both an intellectual and deeply peaceful drawing towards Judaism so I have purposed myself to study and grow in both my knowledge and understanding.

Interestingly enough I can find no one who is Jewish who is willing to guide me in this study. And I can understand the hesitancy.

I agree with the above lettter - And because I do I understand the hesitancy on the part of those I've asked to help me along my way. They seem to be hostile when I approach them for help - and ultimately they recommend a couple of books and send me on my way.

So what am I to do? How do I help them understand that I am not a wolf in sheep's clothing but rather a lamb hoping to grow.

I wish my Christian fellows would realize what a wealth of knowledge they are missing when they assume there is nothing they need to learn from the Jews they approach. I wish, and try to help those I can understand, that they should be asking question and seeking to learn and not seeking to "convert".

I still struggle - caught in the middle - holding to my "christian" belief and yet feeling such an awesome love for Torah and G-d's people.

Any advise for my journey?

When you're approached by the J's for J remember that some are sincere and simply ill informed, some are just ignorant and, unfortunately some are yielding to an evil impulse they have yet to recognize.