I was accosted at the beach today by a guy from Jews for Jesus. He offered me a New Testament in Yiddish and said that many Jews have been "saved" by accepting Jesus as the messiah.
65 Comments Posted
For over two year I have been wandering in a wilderness. My faith was eroding and I was struggling deeply. Add to that the fact that I am an ordained Christian Pastor as well as a trained theologian and church historian and the light gets dimmer.
It has been through my study of Judaism that my faith has begun to be strengthened. It is through a consciouse rooting out and rejection of the Helenistic and Constantinian influences on my faith that I have once again begun to seek G-d and rejoice in Him.
In short, it is through learning (slowly and ackwardly) about the roots of my faith that hope once more shines. I have been undone and redone by what I have discovered and am discovering.
My wife's heritage is Jewish and my father always maintained we were of Jewish descent. I have always had an unexplainable love for Israel and a sense of awe about the Tanak. I feel both an intellectual and deeply peaceful drawing towards Judaism so I have purposed myself to study and grow in both my knowledge and understanding.
Interestingly enough I can find noone who is Jewish who is willing to guide me in this study. And I can understand the hesitancy.
I agree with the above lettter - And because I do I understand the hesitancy on the part of those I've asked to help me along my way. They seem to be hostile when I approach them for help - and ultimately they recommend a couple of books and send me on my way.
So what am I to do? How do I help them understand that I am not a wolf in sheep's clothing but rather a lamb hoping to grow.
I wish my Christian fellows would realize what a wealth of knowledge they are missing when they assume there is nothing they need to learn from the Jews they approach. I wish, and try to help those I can understand, that they should be asking question and seeking to learn and not seeking to "convert".
I still struggle - caught in the middle - holding to my "christian" belief and yet feeling such an awesome love for Torah and G-d's people.
Any advise for my journey?
When you're approached by the J's for J remember that some are sincere and simply ill informed, some are just ignorant and, unfortunately some are yielding to an evil impulse they have yet to recognize.
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Michael Sanders, you will not be so tormented, if you convert to Judaism. Judaism is not an intellectual exercise. You have to live it and believe in it, to understand it. To say you "understand" Judaism, because you spoke to Jewish people, or Jewish wise men, is a cop-out. I am sorry, the bottom line is, you must commit yourself to Judaism. Then you will find happiness.
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I have just read your article and agree that using slimy tactics to convert people to Christianity is wrong. I am a catholic by birth and contrary to our beliefs I think it is not our job to convert anybody, G_d put us where we are for a reason although i sometimes wish I was born Jewish it is G_ds will not mine. I love my Jewish neighbors and respect their traditions both written and oral. I have a Stone Edition Chumash and look forward to purchasing a Talmud so I can continue learning about the wonderful traditions of Judaism. Shalom.
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I have not had the pleasure of being accosted by anyone from Jews for Jesus but no doubt it will happen one day. I have, however, had many discussions with J-'s Witnesses and other born again Christian religions.
I was brought up in a Christian environment. I think I know the Christian gospel well, certainly well enough to argue back with J-'s Witnesses. I challenge anyone to point anything out to me that is opposed to Jewish thinking in any of the four gospels that are commonly available (apart from things that are obviously false such as the crucifiction story and the Roman governor washing his hands etc..) Jesus, if he existed, was clearly a reforming Jew who at all times encouraged people to obey the law of Moses.
By insulting the opinions of others we do ourselves down and it is our duty to respect other people if we do not agree with them and even if they do not respect us. Our obligation is to show by example and not by resorting to a holier than you attitude.
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If you study the early 11th - 13th century Catholic Church you will be horrified at the excesses performed by them in the name of religion. These people were criminals who robbed all and sundry, ordered Church Taxes to be paid by the poor, ordered freeholders' land to be confiscated, and who put down with the sword, stake, fire and torture chamber all forms of dissent. They couldn't care less about who they libelled, spited, spat on and forced to flee from their homes, and if a "solidarity with Christ pogrom" was required they knew who to rely on locally and who to imprison and rob. If you're attracted by Jews for Jesus, then you're sipping wine with Himmler, Heydrich and Shicklegruber and the devil. Just read any modern book on the religous wars for proof of what I say. In Jesus's name thousands of law abiding, peaceful Jews were murdered - so I think you should pass on this one. The so called Christians Churches owe the Jewish community 6 million apologies.
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The reason why Jews don't believe in Jesus was not explained here.
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This may be a bit brash- so consider yourself advised.
If Jesus was indeed the meshiach would we not be living in peaceful times? would not the tragic deaths of those fighting for peace in our world be unneccessary? would not all sinfinful ways have been unequivically absolved if Jesus was the meshiach?
Perhaps my expectations for meshiach are too high?
For a believer in Jesus to say... "wait for the second coming?" what kind of strange and circular argument is that? Jesus couldn't do the job the first time because he's not "the one."
Coming back (and I thought the argument was that he triumphed over death, so isn't he" here" alreay?) isn't going to give him super powers. And by this point, his neshema could've already returned- maybe a couple of times- and this "savior's" soul is not found repeated. My not uncommon guess is that he was a charismatic man in the right time and right place- not unlike any other cult leader. But that's a different discussion.
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the Xtianists?
One, the question of who is the Moshiach.
Two, the question over whether a divine essence can actually materialize itself in the flesh.
After all these years, the Xtianists continue to pester you over these questions.
Why don't they just take your word on it that there is a 'noahide law' against them committing idolatry (with no exception for the worship of the Galilean), and that the One True G-d can't be limited to a physical definition?
And why do Xtianists insist that what obviously started as the 'greek testament' and ended up in the hands of the Romans has to be Jewish?
Really, how did you get in the middle of it?
What will it actually take to get you out of the middle of it?
And ultimately the question is: Do you really need to wait for the Moshiach to answer all of the above?
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Note: Please, do not get into 'name calling' if you cannot present a better argument. To refer to those Jewish men and women who have chosen to join a Christian church by insulting names, will not be helpful at all in the dialogue. There are many jewish men and women with doctoral and even rabbinical degrees that have joined Christian churches from their own convictions. To say that those who join a Christian church are 'ignorants' it is also an insult to million of Christians. It is not wise to use that kind of language.
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Anonymous, you say that:
"There are many Jewish men and women with doctoral and even rabbinical degrees that have joined Christian churches from their own convictions. To say that those who join a Christian church are 'ignorants' it is also an insult to million of Christians. It is not wise to use that kind of language."
First of all, even the most intelligent people can be fooled. In my opinion, anyone who has been tricked by the xian church is ignorant in at least one way.
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How does Judaism regard Islam? Could they be regarded as "sister" faiths? I ask this only because I''ve heard Jews say that Muslims can be regarded as their brothers due to the similarities of the two religions. Lastly, for those who believe the two faiths are sisters, should Muhammed then be regarded as one of the prophets?
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Re: Islam. One cannot be a "Jewish Muslim" any more than one can be a Jew who believes in Jesus. The beliefs expressed by both of these religions are not consistent with Judaism's core principles. That said, there is a difference between Islam and Christianity, as Islam's teachings are purely monotheistic, as opposed to Christianity's Trinity. This explains why, according to a majority of halachic opinions, a Jew may pray to G-d in a mosque if necessary, but not in a church.
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You're correct. Christians, and I am one, have innocent blood on our hands from stupid evil ignorance and WE DO OWE the Jews more than six million apologies. But how can an apology bring back those destroyed; living and dead? We need to do MORE than say we are sorry. We need to take care of and protect those which are alive. WE cannot FORGET either. If it's of any comfort to you who are Jews, I am truly sorry for those who claimed to be Christians and destroyed your people. It's my humble opinion that we need to repent on our faces in dust and ashes for the sins of our fathers. I have. I LOVE the Jews with all my heart. I would never insult them by trying to convert them. I would howerver, like to learn from them, the ways of Jews and G-D because I hunger to know and serve the G-D of Abraham, Issiac, and Jacob. I think we need to offer those in danger NOW around the world refuge and protection. You were hated without cause, NOW, may we love you, respect you, and protect you from evil?
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The answer is very simple. Christians are ex-Jews who believe that Christ is the Messiah & Jews believe that he is not. So yes, the two are mutually exclusive because if you believe that Jesus was the Messiah, then you CAN'T be a non-secular Jew.
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An article written on this very website by the Rabbi says, "a Jew never ceases to be a Jew, no matter what. Even if that Jew were to be an Ordained Catholic priest, he is still a Jew..."
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I undestand from the question, the answer, and the comments that the whole concept of Jews for Jesus is missleading and incorrect. My comment is that no one in the hundreds of words posted hear, addressed the question which I will repeat: Can a Jew believe in Jesus? If not (which seems to be the case), why? What is the great conflict/problem? Thank you and forgive my ignorance.
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I've always wondered how that worked, and although I share your opinion I could never word it as well. It makes me smile a lot to read this.
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Because someone offers another person a new testament in yiddish that is considered a "slimy tatic"? could you please explain?
Though I am not a jew or represent "Jew for Jesus" I am a Christian (as are "Jews for Jesus") and believe him (Jesus) to be the true messiah. my belief in this does not cause me to in your words "suspend logic and clear thinking". I could make the same statement in regards to the Jewish faith but think it has no place in a open honest dialog and consider it rather insulting.
The reason this person in question attempted to give out a new testament is because he wants to share the good news of Jesus. If your not interested why not just nay "no thank you" and be done with it. "Jews for Jesus is in fact a jewish organization in which many in the organization are in fact Jewish contrary to your statement that they are "non jews who take on jewish names".. I respect your defending of your faith but please check your facts first.
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Jews for Jesus is a Baptist Christian organization
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I belong to a local Episcopal congregation. The church has a Sedar Meal each year around Holy Week. I feel that, other than a teaching tool or an ethnic demonstartion, there is little to be gained for a Christian and perhaps it is an offense to the Jewish religion to "demonstrate" this, and have said so. How does the Jewish community look upon a Christian Church having a Sedar meal, (done I might add, with respect) ?
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Michael,
You must understand where the people you approach about learning Judaism are coming from.
Although I'm sure you see absolutely nothing wrong with learning the "roots of your faith", those exact words are used in the newer movements of "Messianic Judaism" and "Hebrew Christians". The focus of these groups are the same as Jews for Jesus.
Somebody walking in, proclaiming their Christian faith, a minister, wanting to learn about Judaism. Wouldn't that be like a wolf getting training from the sheep he's about to kill?
The hostility was recently explained to me a bit shockingly. To you, those words "Hebrew Christian", "Messianic", etc are not shocking.
Considering the damage these groups have done to the Jewish people though, it's like walking in and saying "I'm Hamass, and I'd like a schedule of your services just because I'm curious".
My suggestion would be to research the answers given by Jews for Judaism.
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I am a Jewish convert. The conversion process feels like a homecoming for me.
I was raised roman catholic. I was confused by those who would act ung-dly outside of church justifying that a son of G-d saved them by dying for their sins. Faith is important but so is following the law. There can be no love without the law. How can you love someone if you're always breaking or violating their rules? Yes, humans aren't perfect. We're bound to make mistakes, stray off the righteous way, and take unrighteous detours but we must try to stay on the path that ultimately leads home, to G-d's heart.
When I first inquired about conversion, I was told that my name was of Hebrew origin. I was the only child of 5 who missed out on having a middle name. As a convert, I can select a Jewish one. I was born to be a Jew! That confirmed Jewish beliefs about mystical interpretation of conversions to Judaism, that a convert is someone w/ a Jewish neshama (soul) who is simply to find his/her way home.
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A true convert is one that turns or changes from a lifestyle of sin to one of sincere repentance and commits to a religiously observant life.
Judaism, unlike Christianity and Islam, is not a proselytizing religion. Because it teaches that the righteous of all nations shall enter the gates of heaven, it does not have any compelling urge to rescue non-Jews from hell. Jews are instructed to open a willing convert with open arms.
Jews and Christians recognize that Jews were G-d's chosen people whom G-d reveals Him and His ways to as it is indicated in the Hebrew Bible (or Old Testament for Christians) But that does not mean Jews are superior to anyone else. (see "Are Jews the Chosen People?")
As shown in the books of Jonah and Ruth (themes of relations and repentance) G-d's mercy is inclusive, G-d is open to all peoples.
See also
"The Story of Your Life" on chabad.org
As a child of a roman catholic father and seventh day adventist mother, I was raised to love thy neighbor.
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There was no disrespect for Christianity in this article. Jews for Jesus are a deceptive organization that claims that Christianity is Judaism. Anyone who believes that is at best ignorant.
Jews cannot believe in Jesus, because he didn't fulfill the Torah's criteria for a messiah, hence he was a false messiah. The claim of divinity is even more incompatable with Judaism, as it contradicts several principle beliefs in the Torah about G-d, such as that He has no form, is One, and that there is no need for an intermediary between man and G-d.
I hope this helps clear up some confusion.
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Shalom,
I was born into a Roman Catholic family but never believed it - mainly the statues thing. At 17 I became a Born-again Christian, but Jewish things called to me so I began to preach the keeping of Shabbat and Jewish feasts.
I came to Israel and fell in love with it. Shotly after I found out I am Jewish.
I am now trying to find documentary proof of this because I want to live Jewish. However, I think our people should make a more concrete effort in explaining why they do not believe in Jesus to their brethren who do instead of rejecting them and giving up on them.
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Dear Anonymous in Israel,
Explaining to Christians why a Jew rejects Jesus is easier said than done.
I'm a former Christian as well and for some time was involved in a ministry to the Jews. I personally faced the arguments on a nearly daily basis and know for a fact that I wasn't going to hear anything until I was ready. I'm finding the same for Christian friends, especially Jewish-Christian friends whom I wish would listen.
Christianity is very much an emotional religion. Emotional blinders are near impossible to penetrate. Until that person is willing to remove the blinder to even give the other side a glance, they'll continue to live in that world.
Believe me, I desperately wish it were as simple as having patience and explaining things better. It's painful to see so many Jewish friends in the church, some of which I feel somewhat responsible for.
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Ok, guys. I'm really confused here. Would someone from Chabad please let me know what the minimum "belief" requirements are in order for me to be considered a Jew. Here in Tel Aviv, I am surrounded by Jews (by birth, as am I) who are Buddhists, 'New-Agers', Secular, Agnostic, and even Atheistic. Since everyone seems so focused on why those who accept Jesus as the Messiah are no longer Jews as they do not hold to the 'central tenants of Judaism', I need help flushing this one out. Who else is precluded from this list -- and is no longer considered a Jew? Let's all come to an agreement on this, shall we?
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Some clarification as requested:
The answer is simple: This is not a religion. It's a people. You can be the pope and if your mother was Jewish you're still Jewish. Or you can be the Dali Lama for that matter. On the other hand, if one day we would discover that the chief rabbi of Israel was really adopted and never converted, he would still need a conversion to be Jewish.
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It's funny that there is no such an organisation as 'Moses for Christians' to counter the 'Jews for Jesus' thing. Abridged copies of the Talmud could be handed out in places where Christians congregate, and easy access walk-in shools could be provide, and so on.
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It is a little known fact that there are (or used to be) some very fundamentalist Protestant sects, e.g. the "Old School Baptists," who did not believe in "converting" others or prosyletizing. The early Baptists were very big believers in freedom of conscience. The following was written by an obscure Baptist minister, Robert I. Devin, in North Carolina in 1880: "God alone is the great arbiter of conscience, having given to no created being, be he prince or potentate, any authority to say what religious faith a man must possess." Further, "No mortal man has any right to settle the religious opinions of other persons." And, "Soul-liberty is the inalienable right of every human being." In case you think he is just talking about being a Baptist vs. a Methodist, he talks about people having every right to be Pagans or Infidels if they so choose.
All I can say is, it is too bad that this laudable point of view has been almost entirely forgotten by Baptists and "Evangelicals" today
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Why is it that Christianity believes that Jews are overlooked by G-d if they do not accept Christ? And believe in some rapture that discriminates the Jewish people. Its insulting to try and use Judaism to base your faiths roots and disregard it and the Jewish people at the same time. G-d's promise to the Jewish people is never changing and eternal. I think that Christianity gives people the notion that G-d does not forgive. Then they ask about animal sacrifice. But the question is...If animal sacrifice is the only way to gain forgiveness. Then, Why did G-d send a man to die for your sins? I know many good Christians and not all are uneducated completely. But at the same time they believe that Jesus was sent as a way for the Gentiles. Its more questions then answers. I love one G-d and see one way and that is Judaism.
Hosea 2
The number of the people of Isreal shall be like that of the sands of the sea, which cannot be measured or counted; and instead of being told "You are not my people," they shall be called Children of the living G-d.
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I can't agree with Christian theology. Heck, I'm having a hard enough time believing all the teachings of Judaism! My neighbor goes to one of those Jewish churches or Christian synagogues or whatever. As a history buff, I kind of respect where he is coming from. He wants to practice Christianity in as pure & original form as possible. He see the Catholic Church as too Paganized, so he goes to the Judeo-Christian congregation so as to trace Christianity back to its Jewish roots. The curiosity got the better of me, and I attended one of their services. I would have to describe them as Born-Again Christians in skull-caps and prayer shawls. The problem is that things have changed since 2000 years ago; the original apostles may have (mistakenly) thought Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah, but that doesn't mean they thought he was G-d, does it?
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"All religions are free to present their beliefs in the open market of ideas."
I was just wondering if you believe that all religions lead to God, or do only Jews get to go to heaven? Just wondering....
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You ended your comment with:
the original apostles may have (mistakenly) thought Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah, but that doesn't mean they thought he was G-d, does it?
The answer is Yes. The fundamental belief of Chriatianity is that Jesus is God. The trinity concept that every denomination accepts. It's only Jehovah Witness' and some Seven Day Adventists that don't agree with the trinity (3 in one god-head). He is equal to the father and I'm sure you noticed uplifted hands in a praise & worship service. They worship G-d, but you'll also hear them worshiping and ending every prayer "in the name of Jesus". That's where they're wrong and it becomes Idolitry.
He is G-d and G-d alone, beside him there is no other.
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Jewish belief is that anyone who keeps the basic rules of upright human conduct as G_d instructed both Adam and Noah, has a share in the World To Come. Doesn't matter what religion/creed/faith they identify with. Just gotta be good and follow the Manufacturer's instructions.
For info on these rules, do a search here on "Noahide Laws".
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Even as a Christian (not just my name), I have to agree with the Editor here. It sickens me when I see 'fellow' Christians trying to slyly convert others. So it is best to ignore them. I'm pretty sure it says in both Jewish and Christian teaching that God commands us to love our neighbors, and this Jews for Jesus group seem to be doing the opposite.
Faith is not a toy you can throw away, its what you believe.
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It's difficult to ignore them when you have groups that are so "in your face".
Groups like this target Jewish areas specifically. They go door to door, they browse the Kosher groceries, they are taught to attend JCC events, visit synagogues, blend in and befriend people in order to share "Messiah", they even disrupt the most holy places, like the Western Wall.
Shouldn't a Jew be able to pray at this precious site and not have to deal with the harassment, being tapped on the shoulder during prayer and asked "Do you know Yeshua?"
In my opinion, Jews have "ignored" them for too long. I admire the groups who stand up to them, tell them their not welcome, remove them from our synagogues, ect.
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"Of course a Jew can believe in Jesus. ... As long as logic and clear thinking are suspended"
You're response to an honest question is to slander fellow Jews who *do* believe that Jesus is the Moshiach, then go on to confuse the issue by wasting most of your answer talking about the "Jews of Jesus" sect.
What kind of example do you think you're setting to others by dismissing such a serious issue as the Moshiach and whether or not Jesus of Nazareth was the Anointed One?
I find it very disturbing to see this level of ignorance at a place where people go for wisdom.
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you should have been a politician. Attack Jews for Jesus (of which i am not a member) pait them as sly, deluded(stupid), and people who exploit the weak and elderly. inflammatory tactics for sure but just try answering the actual question instead and we would all be a little more impressed and actual dialogue could occur. Whatever your beliefs this editors reply is worthy of a second grader.
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pity all the replies seem to have been written by this J4J cult.
Why can't they believe whatever illogical material they want without feeling the need to ram it down everybody else's throats?
It's not a case of Jesus's merits and/or claim to be Moshiach, it's the "holier than thou attitude".
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There are just two points. First you have to define what belief means. All Christians have to accept the Nicene Creed, this is called the catholicity (i.e. universality) of faith. No Jew can accept the Nicene creed. This leaves us with the question, was Jesus a Zadok, if so then it is possible to pray to Jesus in order to petition G-d. But this is not Christian belief in Jesus. Second, it is not a ploy for a believer in Jesus, nio matter whether a Christian or not, to adopt a Jewish name and way of life, the reason for this is because Jesus taught that such people will gain a high place in the 'Kingdom of G-d'. The question is, to what extent is the Rabbinical tradition to be followed for a non-Jewish, or even a Jewish believer in Jesus. Now what seems to happen is this, some Jews convert to Christianity, and those who become Protestant find that they can legitimately practice to a greater or lesser extent their former faith. Also some Protestants in Catholic countries adopt a Jewish life-style as part of their expression of their Christian faith, but they are persecuted by their Catholic neighbours, fo they go the whole way and adopt Judeism. They are then recognized as Jews by the State of Israel in the attempt to bump up the number of Jews. I hope that this helps people to understand this twilight zone between Judeism and Christianity a little bit better. G-d bless and keep the hettle boiling.
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im a 19yr old muslim girl turn ed to Jesus. i've been to churches and i know islam very well. my only conclusion is religion is man made. would u say all buddhist would go to hell just because they dont believe in God? we are all created in God's image. and he wants to magnify his greatness in us. thats all. so if a buddhist keeps his precepts and are good towards others(his neighbors), then God's personality is maginified in him. peace, love and harmony are the teachings of buddhism. i think its better that we start living that way than to argue over our differences. in the end, we are all one. we are all connected to each other. nothing lasts, only God remains. think about it.
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It strikes me that most correspondents are from North America and as such do not know about European things, for example if you travel about Europe you will find a notable absence of Jews in many parts of Europe, and this absence is not because European Jews converted to Christianity. Nazi idiology was such that only two very small minorities of Jews were given immunity from extermination, but this did not apply to J's for J who would most certainly would have been exterminated if the Nazis had conquered the U.K. Incidentally not a few Nazis were church going Christians, J,s for J reflect upon this! I also think that Zionism failed European Jews in their hour of need. If the Jewish state was established anywhere else, even say if an Aleutian island was given to Jews as an independent Jewish state it could have provided passports and visas. Small isles like Singapor also show that a small island can support a large population, and what about Long Island NY? Millions of Jews live on it.
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I think it would be silly for anyone not to "believe in" Jesus, as if referring to him as the Easter Bunny or Tooth Fairy. It's a historical fact that Jesus was here, and I think the fact that the whole world recognizes the year we are in is pretty amazing in itself. There has been no other spiritual teacher in history who has changed time.
So I think the real question is, can a Jew "believe Jesus". Why not? He provided alot of reasons for us to believe. Maybe what these Jewish converts expereinced was real. Why not at least show them the respect you wish to be shown as well...?
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I am a Gentile (I think) raised by a father who told me from a young age to deeply respect and love the Jews and his only friends were Jewish. I think my Father read the Bible more than anyone I ever met, he died when I was 18 and my Mother sent me to Lutheran school which taught me to search the scriptures for in them were life and godliness and that all the scriptures were true holy and without error. So I am 57 and still searching the Word and it is Alive and I love this Chabad site where I can learn what the descendants of the writers learn and what they believe and I find love and truth on every page. I absolutely love reading on here daily. Thank you. You are answering my questions I have had since a small child. I number my days by your calendar and I feel silly but I bring in the Shabbat and Holy Days alone. Balance is finally coming into my life. Can I be Jewish somehow?
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OK, Jesus did exist from a historical perspective. How does that mean he's anything more than a normal man???
Regarding time, there are several calendar systems in use worldwide.
It's currently 1428 in the moslem year, 5769 in the Jewish year. India used to have around 30 different date systems. And, many more worldwide. The Western calendar is now a universal standard as it prevents confusion in business dealings - nothing else. So, religious systems/leaders have indeed caused different time systems to be established.
It's difficult to tell whether Jesus was a spiritual teacher any more than any other rural rabbi of that time. After all, most of the belief structure didn't exist until the Council of Nicea in 325 C.E. The attendees decided for themselves what they wanted the public to believe. Much earlier material was excluded and significant new "invented" material was added in order to reinforce the power of the clergy.
So, maybe respect for Jesus as a man, but not as a son of God.
Judaism was given by God directly to man, all other middle-eastern religions of that time and later, were created by men, generally to further their own political adgenda/power base. Judaism is therefore the only contender for a true religion.
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People & events are documented as fact by recorded documents.
Jews happen to be one of the best cultures for documenting everything. If it happened, it's documented. Funny that all of this took place, yet they don't record any Jesus. There's only one reference in talmudic sources that reference any such man and the timing of that reference don't match the supposed historic Jesus.
Other than the New Testament, there are no historic references to his existance... and certainly not to the scale that's reported in the NT. Considering all of the great writers of that time, isn't that strange?
The New Testament reports that after the resurrection, 500 people were raised from the dead. I have a hard time believing that the chaos that would surround 500 people coming back to life, dead spouses coming back to married wives, dead children returning to families... just from a hereditary standpoint, is it possible for that type of event to not be recorded anywhere else?!?!?!
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We could go back & forth over his existence, but the real fact of the matter is... "Is he who he claimed to be?"
If he is not the Messiah, why does anything else matter?
Christians who end up leaving when they discover this struggle with this more than anything else.
It's simply difficult to let go of something you've put so much into, so much emotional attachment to, and many times it's been the focal point of that person's life.
It's heart wrenching and traumatic when that core is stripped away.
But at the same time, it's freeing and worth the discovery.
My advice to anybody that's really searching this subject: Pour all of your energy into studying Torah... true Torah. Don't rely on Christian translations (as written & chosen by the catholic church). Get it direct from the Hebrew. There's a library here at chabad.org for those who need a true translation - go to the LIBRARY section.
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Shannon, I see you have quite a bit of negative things to say about Christians and Jews for Jesus - you seem to very enjoy this. Curious as to what kind of ministry you were involved in to the Jewish people and what church did you attend.
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There is plenty of historical writings about Jesus, more than for many other historic figures who are accepted as genuine. to say "there are NO historic references" is at best ignorance and at worst and outright lie.
For some reason this forum does not allow links that I wanted to post (which is strange) but, anyway, simply do a search for "historical references to Jesus" and also "Acts of Pontius Pilate" and you will find many.
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I traveled with my father (an Assemblies of God evangelist) since I was a young girl, later joining his ministry and then off on my own in Messianic Synagogues.
My negative statements are not directed towards Christianity in general, but rather Jewish evangelism. There are many very good Christians out there who have respect and love for the Jewish people and people in general.
Then there are those who are completely intolerant, teaching that the whole world must conform to their own religious beliefs or face eternal damnation.... it's those people that offensively harass the Jewish people and bring about such a negative view of a supposid peaceful and accepting religion.
Hugs go out to all the true Christian Zionists who support the Jewish people, refrain from evangelizing, and do so without an agenda.
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When searching for "historical references to Jesus" I find quite a different story and in fact can't figure out what you may be finding. I find the exact opposite.
There are NO contemporanius historic writings about Jesus. No historian or writer wrote about Jesus IN HIS TIME. The first historic reference to him are near the end of the first century, which are slight and highly questionable.
Josepheus for instance, who wrote 2 sentences refrencing such a man, was born in the year 37, nowhere near the time of Jesus.
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Ezekiel 18:4 "For all lives are mine; the life of the father is like the life of the son, both are mine; only the one who sins shall die." I think this verse means that rather than fighting over whether Christians, Jews, or Mouslims are right and which are wrong, we should focus on whether or not we are virtuous before the Lord G-d. I applaude anyone who can really follow their own faith without being a fake hypocrite. Focus on your own relationship with G-d. Do you really love G-d with all of your heart, mind, and soul? Is it actually possible for anyone to love one's neighbors like oneself? But if you absolutely must judge another person's faith, judge fairly (verse 8). Happy Holidays.
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Yes and no. Ethnically, I was born a full blooded Jew -- both on my mother's side and my father's side. Ours was a secular jewish home solidly rooted in secular jewish American culture. In midlife, I put my faith in Jesus and joined a church. Obviously I am no longer a Jew religiously (I really never was) and to regularly attend and affiliate with a synagogue makes no sense. We are not co-religionsists. However, ethnically, I'm as Jewish as I ever was. Should Nazism ever resurface (an extreme example) I would be targeted for persecution like any other Jew. And there's nothing I like more than a good rye bread. I always serve food at a party. And I still cringe whenever I hear some racist jerk make a comment about "the Jews." So you tell me -- even though I believe in Jesus, aren't I still Jewish? I don't expect to be embraced by the synagogue . . . but you'd be surprised how the Jews who always knew you still treat you as one of their own.
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It is interesting to me that you bring up historical records outside of the Bible and the Torah. I just heard someone on TV suggesting that Moses was not a real actual person but merely a symbolic representation of Jewish faith. Was Moses a real living person who walked with G-d or just a story to educate Jewish children?
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Moses was absolutely REAL
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The topic is Jesus vs. the Jewish scriptures. The claim is that the New Testament simply dovetails the old, or is a fulfillment of the Torah.
If you begin to deny even the basic belief that the Torah is true, or that there even is a God... there's no need to continue the discussion.
One has to have something to go back to. An original to base the additions on (as Christianity claims the NT does).
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Shannon, What is your point? Would like to respond appropriately but not sure what you are trying to express. can you quote scripture to interpret scripture - that works best. Thanks.
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difficult one this sensitive area i am a jew with many christian friends i feel some of the comments are a little pointless. Let's stop arguing for a moment let me just say lets look at a dutch christian lady in the second world war named corrie ten blom, she was a 18 year old girl who with her father also a christian put there lives at risk and led the dutch resistance smuggling jews underground to safety they had to hide in their loft each night sharing food praying together and having deep faith with god. my point is they were jews and christians together believing in one god for their strength.
she was caught and tortured with members of her family with her sister dying from the terrible conditions. she never gave up on her love and devotion of protecting our people i think we have a lot to learn from this remarkable person who went on to open safe houses and rest homes for jews after the war...
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I am not sure I understand why so many responses seem hostile against Jews for Jesus? Living in the Chicago area, I can meet Jews for Jesus, Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Har Krishnas, Catholic Knights of Columbus, and Baptist missionaries all on the same day walking through the city. I have always been open and polite to people and have never encountered any problems. What is the big deal if a religious person of a different faith tries to talk to you or hand you a flyer about their group? If you are not interested you can always say so and walk away.
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Rabbi Simcha Maier Pearlmutter stated that
"Christianity did not build upon its Jewish foundation. It completely eschewed that Jewish base and built for itself a structure that is totally and fully a competitive, antagonistic institution in relationship to Judaism. One need only refer to the earliest conmmentaries of the Church Fathers themselves to verify this fact, which is not open to debate since the evidence is all in."
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Are we talking about Jewishness or Judaism ? I thought Judaism is wisdom for every person. I don't see how one could lose ones Jewishness. I see other Jews & being jewish is who one is. Dosn't jewishness come from the inside & shines outwardly as lampstand.
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Jesus was a Jew, so this hostility is upsetting to me. I was raised as a Catholic and neither the priests or the sisters ever belittled the Jews or Judaism. We are all part of the Creator so why can't a person believe another has divinity in them. I don't understand why this world has to separate themselves over issues of faiths and religions. As long as we try to be altruistic is all that matters.
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I've went through a crazy amount of changes in my life. I was raised a Christian, then became involved in Messianic 'Judaism' (if you want to call it that) it was ironic, but all my studying of Torah that I did while I believed the Messianic way eventually made me realize my belief in Jesus had been false for quite some time. Now I'm a convert to Judaism. Looking back at what I was from this side now I can't believe what I used to hold as truth. It's just so obvious to me now that its false. Once you get your head out of that strict mind of Christian thinking only then do you really start to learn.
The Rabbi is very right about the few Jewish leaders in these organizations, they ARE either ignorant of Judaism or had some bad experience with it. I have found that to be the case for many of the higher ups that I knew.
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it is true that we are all created by a creator!! but then why is it that some have many different beliefs?? are there many creators?? how could this happen??
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