Question:
I was accosted at the beach today by a guy from Jews for Jesus. He offered me a New Testament in Yiddish and said that many Jews have been "saved" by accepting Jesus as the messiah. I just ignored him. Then I saw a big ad in the newspaper from the same people. My question: Can a Jew believe in Jesus?
Answer:
Of course a Jew can believe in Jesus. Just like a vegetarian can enjoy a rump steak, a peace activist can join a violent demonstration, and a dictator who preaches martyrdom can surrender himself to his enemies. As long as logic and clear thinking are suspended, anything makes sense!
I think your response to that missionary was the best one - to ignore him. Missionising is not a new phenomenon. Certain Christian sects believe that their messiah will only return when the Jews accept him. Throughout history Jews have been threatened with death, torture and expulsion if they don't convert. More recently, missionaries targeted the weak of our community - the elderly, new immigrants, and the underprivileged - in an attempt to exploit their vulnerability. All these attempts have had little or no success. Whether religious or not, Jews are reluctant to give up their Jewishness.
So they came up with a new ploy. Rather than demand conversion, they offered Jews to remain Jewish, and even "complete" their Jewishness by accepting Jesus. Thus Jews for Jesus was born.
This is a movement of non-Jews who pose as Jews by taking on Jewish names. They do usually have a token Jewish member, who is invariably either ignorant of Judaism at best or psychologically imbalanced at worst. They are a sham.
All religions are free to present their beliefs in the open market of ideas. But if they have to resort to slimy tactics like Jews for Jesus does, then they obviously have nothing to offer a thinking person.
Editor's Note: Visit Jews for Judaism for a comprehensive counter-missionary handbook.
Riverside, CA USA
Riverside, CA USA
Orlando,FL
Riverside, CA USA
Karen, I coudn't care less about their motives. Their Actions lead to the same result.
Germany
Orlando,Fl
Riverside, CA USA
Riverside, CA USA
Let's not forget the many Jews who were hidden and thereby saved fr the Nazis by Christians who were serious about their faith.
I know that Hashem cannot be so small as to be in a wafer. and I am secure enough in my faith to at least study a little about other religions.
I value the truth. But who has the truth?
how could any one of us give up our identity as jews? We dont have to.
It is true that much horror and jewish blood has been shed in that name.
So turn the tables. Educate that Christian who comes up to you.
tell him how your G-d is so High and so Huge that he cannot be contained in a word or a church or a symbol, how your soul can open to Him anywhere even if we go to the moon or any galaxy. Educate.
chabadps.com
Albuquerque,nm
Hopewell, VA/USA
chabadofva.org
Germany
Minneapolis, MN
Besides, another Xian principle is lack of judgment. ... it may raise eyebrows of observers these days, but the book hasn't changed. And there are millions whose heart is fully about Creator. Not everyone arrives at the same conclusion.
I'm not really sure how this conversation has gotten to be about Xian theology, but fact is, unless someone brings them something better, the non-Jew can practice whatever religion makes sense to him.
near Chicago
Riverside, CA, USA
My intentions are to stick to the facts, let the chips fall where they may. Nice or mean -- irrelevant to me on this subject.
Yes, xtians are friendly. They learned it doesn't get them too far to use hostility. There is an agenda behind that friendliness, even if they are not consciously aware of it.
As far as xtian tourism, and support for Israel etc...granted. Again though, there is an agenda behind it, and a price the Jewish community in Israel is paying for that in the form of xtian missionary work.
Another huge problem is folks who are not eligible under the Law of Return using funds intended for those who are eligible in order to move there, establish xtian congregations as a beachhead for more missionary efforts. That missionary work breaks up Jewish families where is succeeds.
Back to the topic, can Jews believe in JC? Yes. Should they? No. The price is unbearably high, with no payback.
Minneapolis, MN
but i prefer to look at the ways we do not differ from our Christina brethren.
If there were no Catholics or Episcolpalians or Mormons even the world woudl be a darker place.
We Jews are hjere to bring the fragments back to order and Light.
as it were. In a manner of speaking --well, so if these groups at least keep 7 of the Noahide laws and try to bring a graceful & civilized way to the planet--they dod do a lot fo charity and help others all over the world.
Let's not forget Evangelical groups are often a best friend to Israel and keep tourism healthy.
we need each other. So corraling them and using extremem examples is harsh.
and i winced when I read the above as I know this writer and she doe not wish to be mean spirited
We don't really know who will go where when we die' do we
Love they neighbor
agoura, ca
Then there's the debate about the old Jew who was faithful to the Torah, scrupulously observant, served G-d and others -- all of it his whole life. Of course, he didn't believe in JC -- VS. the SS officer who beat & tortured innocent men, women and children to death with glee. Where in eternity does each end up, respectively speaking?
9 times out of 10, a xtian will say tell you the unthinkable...the SS guy gets to go to paradise (with just the clothes on his back), and according to them, the old Jew does not -- he burns!! (G-d forbid)
According to that view, and it is a widespread view within xtianity, "consequences" consist of a slap on the wrist. This life might be less than optimal, but paradise for the xtian? Good to go.
Insanity.
Minneapolis, MN
Riverside, CA, USA
Well, this isn't true. That religion actually proposes dire consequences for actions. You reap what you sew type things. Some denominations claim there is eternal burning, some say there is permanent, destruction of the body/soul. There is no such thing as consequence-free xtianity. Even the "once saved, always saved" ppl threaten ppl with hell.
near Chicago
Minneapolis, MN
Riverside, CA, USA
The thing is, there are consequences....and when we behave as if there aren't the ramifications can last for generations.
Minneapolis, MN
Riverside, CA, USA
As far as penalty of sin being death, I think that they are referring to the eventual death of the physical body, which perhaps was not the original design for Adam and Eve given their longevity in comparison to ours. Gift of life being a spiritual life, not physical. Perhaps it means the same for death?
I realize that my questions may be naive, but I am still learning. I want very much to understand the scripture, and believe that Christians have been grossly mislead.
Woodbridge, VA, USA
Riverside, CA, USA
Riverside, CA, USA
We are all free agents and can do what we choose. We would do well to keep in mind that there are consequences to our choices. In order to know what the debate is about I prefer to frame the question as follows: Is it acceptable within the confines of Judaism for a Jew to believe in Jesus?
The whole premise of Xtianity is that Jesus was/is the hoped for Jewish messiah. But when one studies what the qualifications are for "the" Messiah...meaning Messiah ben David, Jesus simply doesn't, nor will he ever qualify. In order to understand how manifestly unqualified he is, one has to study the Hebrew Scriptures in the form of a TaNaKh (Hebrew w/English translation) because the Xtian OT has been altered to fit the Xtian NT in order to make their case seem more compelling.
Minneapolis, MN
Riverside, CA, USA
Riverside, CA, USA
If you are going to challenge someone, at least have the common courtesy of giving your name.
Hurst, TX
Riverside, CA, USA
You can't use the outrage Jews express towards Xtians (and their 2000 year old nagging campaign) as an excuse to shut off your brain. Well, you can, but I doubt it will wash in the end. It certainly won't move you forward in your quest for Truth.
I suggest you do your own independent research. Figure out what Judaism is from a traditional Jewish perspective. Visit a Chabad center or another outreach event. They are everywhere and they are free if you can't afford to pay.
You might be surprised at the positive emphasis when it is clear you are open-minded stop trying to convince them of the error of their ways long enough to really hear their message.
Minneapolis, MN
Riverside, CA, USA
I understand that he and many other Jews take (rightful?) umbrage at the interference of Christians in Judaism, and at Christian missionary efforts. However, as a Jew raised in the Christian church, this kind of angry and borderline hateful response only adds to my confusion, and ultimately pushes me farther away from Judaism.
DC
I haven't misunderstood. Until you choose to reveal what it is you do believe, I choose not to respond directly, but to continue the discussion at hand...which is "Can a Jew believe in Jesus?" -- the Jewish definition of a Jew practicing Xtianity.
You have made specific statements on where the differences between Judaism and Xtianity lay...and I have responded to those statements.
Minneapolis, MN
Riverside, CA, USA
If you intend to draw conclusions, it is helpful to preface them with personal research.
Dvorah, it is relevant that you have managed to sustain a faulty understanding of my original statement regarding similarity of beliefs. It referred to me, my religion and not Christianity, whole or in part.
Also, gentiles can study in original languages.
No one will be without fault in the development of personal ideas. They can only connect themselves as best as they can to reliable centers of information and to Creator.
His entire life is seeped in pagan mythology.
Many others were supposedly born of a virgin, pulled off some "miracles," was killed and then rose from the dead. There are no mentions of those people except in mythology.
I'll let you draw your own conclusions.
Hurst, TX
Riverside, CA, USA
I contend that the two religious/faith systems are more significantly different. Christians think they are so similar because they share much common Scripture, thus the vocabulary is similar. They both have an emphasis on a person called "messiah", though Christianity emphasizes the importance of their messiah much more than does Judaism.
Here's the rub: Christianity defines this common vocabulary differently than does Judaism. Furthermore, the Christian translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, which they have dubbed the Old Testament, is mistranslated in many key passages, as well as many passages being misappropriated, (or even made up!! google yankelleknay at wordpress.com - my husband posted about this) typically where the claim is made that it points to JC.
Both faith systems are oriented towards ethical behavior, due to the prominent treatment of the "Big Ten".
Minneapolis, MN
The JC story is not rooted in the Hebrew Scriptures. The OT is not the TaNaKh...it is a Christian translation and mistranslation of the Hebrew Scriptures and as such, it is misleading. Verses are taken out of context and/or changed in order to make some parts of the TaNaKh seem like it supports the stories in the NT.
Claiming the Jewish messiah must atone for sins via human sacrifice, be buried for 3 days and resurrected simply doesn't match up with the TaNaKh's concept of the Messiah's purpose, qualifications, identity.
The NT is not a part of the Jewish Bible and as such, we don't rely on it.
Minneapolis, MN
Riverside, CA, USA
Now, what I meant by 'terms', wasn't in relation to language. More specifically, I meant 'tenets'. I was thinking in terms of contracts, I guess.
I think we agree on most of this.
It's interesting you brought up Greek Mythology, bc although there was a representation of such characters in many myths, the characters never included such an event as a resurrection until well into the 2nd century, which is only one way Greek mythology differs from any xtian parallels. None of the myths were historical figures, either.
Service and connection with the Creator through practice is also a part of any Biblically-based Christianity. If those ideals aren't central to the belief, it isn't real.
It seems most often that anyone who chooses to do well will find a way to do it. That includes people who see the world differently than we do. Sometimes people are wrong because they don't know how to be right.
Using the American constitutional system as an analogy: Any American law must agree with the constitution. Legislation enacted by Chazal had to agree with the principles of the Torah -- our constitution -- or it would have been declared null and void.
The major disagreement between Christianity and Judaism is not about terms. On the contrary, Christianity has co-opted and re-defined Jewish terms and Hebraic concepts, "messiah" being one example. The Christian messiah, his purpose, life, death, and resurrection is based on Greek mythology, not Hebraic thought.
Christianity is centered on its messiah, and loses it raison d'etre without JC. Judaism is centered on our service to HKB"H through the observance of the Torah.
Minneapolis, MN
Your q's are very good & I appreciate them. However, they don't really fit me. I haven't actually developed my own belief system. I participate in a long-standing, traditional belief system, w standards & practices parallel to Biblical Judaism. It called me. I didn't call it. It will continue w or w/o me. Hopefully w me :o)
As you must realize, Dvorah, the individual act improves the world significantly.
I must ardently disagree w ur statement that Judaism doesn't evolve. Ur statement is factually incorrect, although I understand the sentiment.
[My usage of 'evolve' referred 2 interpretation, causing the development of new 'sects' more n sync w contemporary goals.] Today's Judaism is _often_ spiritual macro-evolution at its best, facilitated by the sacred opinion of the teachers.
To get even deeper, we as human beings delude ourselves very easily. We're biased. We're prone to fantasize. We like to tell a narrative in order to fill in the gaps of the unknown. We like to synthesize new information to make sense with what we already think we know. More than 3,000 years of Judaism amidst a world of shifting spirituality is quite impressive.
slc, ut
Riverside, CA, USA
You can have your individual beliefs. Anyone can. Where is the continuity though? Who will pass your beliefs on to your grandchildren? Does that even matter to you, and if not, why bother? How will what you believe have a shot at improving the world on any significant level?
Judaism is a community based, generational religious system with core tenets that do not "evolve", it is the covenant of the Jewish people, binding us to one another and to G-d. The Torah is our constitution, stable and immutable -- something our fathers and mothers gave up their lives for, rather than compromise, all having had enduring effects for the good on the world.
Minneapolis, MN
Riverside, CA, USA
No established religion or system of living can prevent a continuation, or evolution of ideas. It springs from every belief system in Earth's history.
People are like that. They tend to break away and keep going. Usually, the original establishment is at odds with the break-away. They are not seen as little children, they are considered errant.
near Chicago
"I never suggested that Judaism was Christianity."
Catholicism & Protestantism claim that their faith systems are a continuation of Judaism; their position vis-a-vis JC are the correct view Judaism should have had, and that the direction they have gone is the direction Judaism should have/would have taken had the Jewish people recognized JC as MBD.
"my religion has only one [however great] doctrinal divergeance from traditional Judaism. And that's a fact."
If you study Judaism from an authentic Jewish source, you will find that Judaism & Christianity share a similar moral code, coming from the TaNaKh. However, your OT is askew from TaNaKh, thus many conclusions diverge greatly.
Minneapolis, MN
Asking whether or not a Jew can believe Jesus fulfilled prophecy has nothing to do with Jesus as a person. This was a mistake I made early on. I thought that Jews rejecting Jesus as the Moshiach meant that Jews didn't like Jesus as a person. That Jews were, G-d forbid, vindictive.
What irks me are New Age claims to Jesus completely outside of Torah trying to find middle ground. I've read some books until I came to something blatantly anti-semetic, then set them down. The issue is not whether Jesus was open-minded amongst autocratic, misogynist Jews. The issue is whether or not he fulfilled prophecy. Or will someday.
slc
Hurst, TX
So not every statement I make is meant to refute another idea. I am simply discussing the point.
I never suggested that Judaism was Christianity. I only stated factually, that my religion has only one [however great] doctrinal divergeance from traditional Judaism. And that's a fact. I may not be successful in every task, but I trust that I am getting better with time, and that Creator sees me and shines His truth on my way.
Really, that's all I want, to make my Creator happy... whatever that means for my life.
near Chicago
Riverside, CA, USA
Minneapolis, MN
Riverside, CA, USA
Yes we do, we have and we will continue to do so.
Additionally, I must insist, via my own comparative studies, that there are many differences between Judaism & Christianity besides JC. The Jewish position on the afterlife, of sin, of atonement, the nature of man, of the Creator, of redemption, the meaning of the Messiah, hermeneutics, eschatology...they are all very different than that of Christianity. A life centered on JC means one's basic views on these subjects have departed from traditional Jewish thought.
I understand that Catholicism is very different than Protestantism, that each questions whether the other is truly Christianity. Neither is Judaism.
Minneapolis, MN
Once again thank you Karen I never thought maybe I could be part of the lost tribe. You got me thinking.
Brooklyn, NY
A couple years back, a Rabbi I was corresponding with told me to read Think Jewish, a really great collection of essays, because I was longing to convert to traditional Judaism.
When I read it, loved it, it calmed my desire to go through formal conversion, bc page by page it became clear that the only difference between my religion and the one described in the essays was Jesus. [He didn't talk much about mysticism.]
Not all Christians are idiots, ignorant of Judaism, Jewishness or anything important. Not all Christians are either creepy fans, sinister bigots or maniacal missionaries.
The Creator gives the soul. We are responsible for learning, loving & making decisions, no matter how loud or consistent others are.
Cynthia was off-topic, thus so was my response, as you have implied. Even so, her expressed sentiments required a response. Such claims unchallenged lead to big problems down the road.
Cynthia is saying we don't have a right to boundaries -- to self-define. Every people has a right to self-define. To go back to my America analogy, her argument is the same as saying America has no right to borders.
Due to our apprx 2000 year old statelessness, Christians have a very difficult time picturing us as a nation and the Torah, written and oral as our constitution, because Christianity is built on an entirely different paradigm. One doesn't just declare oneself Jewish. One must enter the proper door, via our "immigration authorities" -- the rabbis -- and according to long established community guidelines.
Minneapolis, MN
Riverside, CA, USA
We Jews do not believe in hell, we do not believe in the "Devil." And we sure do not believe in having any God before God. It is idolatry,
There is NO need for a blood sacrifice nor do we have to bug his mama for favors because THAT is idolatry too.
I quit.
Hurst, TX
Riverside, CA, USA
Cynthia writes: "Jews know nothing of the christian mindset and therefore have no business trying to determine whether Christians are part of the Jewish faith or now."
Christians can think whatever they want.
However, it is certainly the business of the Jewish people to determine who is and who is not, as you put it, "a part of the Jewish faith." in other words, a part of the Jewish people. Judaism is not merely a "faith" nor is it a only religion.
We are a people, and there are definite entry requirements that cannot be co-opted by outsiders, We have laws and you don't get to decide what they are or how we apply them. Neither do I, any more than I can decide for myself who is an American citizen for myself.
To carry the analogy further -- the "Christian mindset" is wholly irrelevant in determining who is a part of the Jewish People, just as the Mexican mindset matters not in determining who is an American.
Chutzpah!!
Minneapolis, MN
Hoiston, Tx
Forget crazy theologies, sects, flakes and tyrants. Biblical Christianity is NOT anti-Judaism. Fundamental Judaism is a personal commitment to the Creator and so is true Christianity.
Sharing ideas shouldn't become a conflict of ethnic proportions.I should sy, it shouldn't continue as a conflict of ethnic proportions. I don't think I've ever met a Jew for Jesus, person, but I have come across some people who practice religious bigotry.
The truth will out. We study, so that we can truly understand the way to live. There are a thousand reasons behind everything.
I have never had to be afraid of learning what others believe, because I know who I am and why I believe what I do.
I am better for having studied and compared on my own. I don't have to be concerned about differences of opinion.
near Chicago
Riverside, CA, USA
East London, South Africa
Assuming you are approved as a candidate, study is 1-2 years.
Being Jewish is a serious responsibility. This is not meant as disrespectful. Judaism is not about numbers or proselytizing. Those approved ideally are serious about achieving & sustaining a high level of observance.
Once a person converts, there is no way back, no way to un-convert. If, over time, you become non-observant, you'll be accountable to G-d as a sinning Jew. If G-d wants you to serve Him as a righteous gentile, no rabbi wants to turn you into a sinning Jew.
If you still desire to convert, find an Orthodox rabbi who specializes in conversions, one which will be universally recognized, rather than wasting time on a "quickie" conversion, which will only render you an older gentile. Avoid rabbis with low standards.
Much success!!
Minneapolis, MN
thanks,
Christians wonder why Jews don't see JC as clearly from our reading of the Hebrew Scriptures as they see from their Old Testament. They think the two books are identical, except for the fact that the TaNaKh is in Hebrew, sometimes with a translation into the local vernacular on the opposing pages. They are not the same thing at all.
Why? Because Christian translators do not use reliable primary source material; they do not translate key passages related to Messiah ben David correctly, conveniently changing or eliminating words that do not suit their purpose; do not follow correct rules in interpreting Scripture -- they don't let the passage interpret itself; treat allegorical passages as literal and vice versa, and do not understand how to use the Oral Law as a resource in understanding them.
In short, the Hebrew Scriptures are Jewish. Jews trained to understand Hebrew concepts will understand it correctly. Everyone else will try to make them bend to their wishes.
Minneapolis, MN
Riverside, CA
Riverside, CA
Even in the Protestant churches, even without the allegations of Christ killing, there's a lot of focus on where "the Jews" supposedly missed the "obvious" signs re JC, our sinfulness and stiff-necked ways etc. "How could those blinded Jews miss Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22??" So obvious (that is, if you can't read Hebrew fluently, and rely on a Christian "translation" -- more like mutilation). Many sermons on the
Minneapolis, MN
Cassville, MO
Riverside, CA
Riverside, CA
Our Father Abraham was told by Hashem that the covenant (testament) that he was making with him was ETERNAL.
Who are you going to believe? Gd, Abraham or the Christian?
Christians just have to follow the Seven Noahide Laws to obtain a place in the world to come. They are children of Gd too.
Some people think it is racist to claim that we are the chosen people...go argue with the Creator of the Universe. If you can change his mind, fine, but until then, we, the Jewish people are still the chosen ones. Not for favorable treatment, but for the honor of keeping his commandments.
The NT was written a long time after those who had seen J were dust.
Hurst, TX
then if he believes in JC, he is believing the consciousness of that individual and what he taught is true.
westlake, ca
There are two questions here: What is the status of an individual Jew? Can he lose his Jewishness? No he can't. He will always be an authentic Jew...meaning, he is Jewish. However, if he indulges in any form of idolatry -- and a life centered on Jesus is a form of idolatry -- then his belief system and the subsequent lifestyle that grows from that belief system is not authentically Jewish.
If everything is Jewish, then nothing is. A Torah centered system of faith does have parameters, like everything. Similarly, a Christian who centers his life around Muhammad can't be said to be practicing authentic Christianity.
I am not saying one Jew is more "important" to G-d than another. Not my job. I personally think all Jews are infinitely precious to G-d.
It's easy to see what is authentic Judaism. Which system actually produces Jews in future generations and in which system do we find mostly non-Jewish grandchildren? Studies have been conducted and the results speak for themselves.
Minneapolis, MN
Riverside, CA
The title is unfortunate, because the answer is self-evident. Of course a Jew can believe in JC and if he does, he remains a Jew; a sinning Jew who will have a lot to answer for one day, but nevertheless, a Jew. For that reason, I take the title to be alluding to a more specific issue -- whether it is correct for a Jew to believe in JC; or whether a Jew should believe in JC. That is what I think R' Moss meant. Otherwise, the question has no meaning.
And, the answer is: No, a Jew should not believe in JC.
As far as whether or not a Jew can be a less authentic or a more authentic Jew...that's not the point either. A Jew is a Jew is a Jew. And so, by definition, he is authentically Jewish.
Can a Jew live a less authentic or a more authentic Jewish life -- yes. There are Jews who do not live up to the Divine Mandate they have been given by having the privilege of being Jews -- which is living a less authentic life vis-a-vis the Torah, both written and oral -- our raison d'etre.
Minneapolis, MN
Riverside, CA
You wrote: "aside fr what the church has done and the atrocities in history in JC's name, can somebody tell me what part of Love they neighbor as they own self
you do not understand? ...and how does it differ with anything in the Torah?"
It doesn't differ with the Torah. It's a direct quote from Parshat Kedoshim: "You shall not take revenge and you shall not bear a grudge against the members of your people; you shall love your fellow as yourself - I am HaShem." Leviticus 19:18 (ויקרא יח)
And yet JC claims this as a "new commandment" claiming that prior to his words, the Jewish people were taught "an eye for an eye" --- which reveals a twisted, superficial understanding of what those words mean.
Why would a Jew turn to a book with questionable credentials, which regularly misquotes, takes out of context and even "quotes" verses from TaNaKh that don't exist, which mixes Greek mystery religions with Torah...when he or she can turn to the Torah itself and learn from it in purity?
Minneapolis, MN
and the atrocities in history in JC's name, can somebody tell me what part of Love they neighbor as they own self
you do not understand?
and how does it differ with anything in the Torah?
agoura, ca
There is certainly no cause for judging individuals. That's HaShem's job, not ours. At the same time, moral /cultural relativism can be an idol too.
We're discussing a specific belief system and whether it is compatible with an authentic Jewish life. We are not discussing the value of individual Jews. Regardless of whether any given Jew is caught up in an alien belief system, he or she is still infinitely precious to Hashem.
That is why this question is so important. Our concern shouldn't be reserved only for those caught up in a mistaken belief about JC. Any belief system outside of the Torah will eventually bring great disappointment to the life of those who hold to it. That includes an excessive focus on romantic love, success or fame, idols many Americans struggle with, because those are the true "American idols" (Youtube: R' Manis Friedman).
The value of each Jew is priceless. We can't afford to lose even one and when we do, the entire Jewish people suffers greatly.
Minneapolis, MN
But after discussing so many ideas and concepts and theologies
i come to the conclusion that the best I can do is try to do mitzvahs and kindnesses for my neighbors
and anybody else in my path of life
the best obsession is the magnificent obsession to try to help somebody and tell noone about it
westlake, ca
Some Jews believe in a lot of different things. That alone does not make their beliefs kosher. The point of this discussion is not whether Jews believe in Jesus or not. The point is this: Is a belief in J compatible with authentic Judaism? The answer is a resounding "no". Judaism is not a worldview that can be privately defined.
One can make a fair comparison to the US Constitution. It can't be changed ad hoc because a few Americans want it to be changed. It's a big process. Only with Judaism, it is defined by G-d. As a community, we can't vote against it's basic principles.
There could be a thousand "messianic" congregations each with their own apostate Jew as a leader -- that doesn't make their belief system an authentic Jewish one. And ... most of those congregations are lucky to have three Jews in them.
That should tell you something.
Minneapolis, MN
Riverside, CA
and others i this society
Now it is time for me to bow out
I don't know what others think
or how many jews are buddhists
or believers in JC
but I do mitzvahs and try to be humble and loving and kind
Kindness is how He created the world
I am sticking to that
there is a big shortage of kindness
let's all keep it simple, eh?
Like a Rebettzin once said to me
"I am worried about the price of butter and chickens to feed my family with"
let's get real
people are starved for kindness
so where is the Chesed in this discussion?
westlake, ca
Adamantly opposing Jews leaving the Torah for JC (by any name) can't be compared to the persecution the Jewish people during our history. To make that comparison is obscene. No Jews are calling for death of Christians.
Jews leaving Judaism for JC hurts the entire fabric of the Jewish people. A Jew who decides to believe in JC is abandoning his or her people and the Jewish people's Divine Mandate. He or his children will be very likely to marry out...thus the death of Jewish souls. Furthermore, it tears entire families apart. I've seen this first hand. Believing someone is the Jewish Messiah when he simply will never qualify is a form of idolatry that the vast majority of Jews, observant or no, simply will not tolerate.
Minneapolis, MN
Brownwood, Texas
Penina Taylor has emphasized that when a Jew strays, he or she often has to fight his or her way back to Judaism. It might be part of your tikkun nefesh. You need to open up to someone, and when you don't find people who will respond, move on, keep going until you find someone who will work with you, invest in you.
There are Youtube videos by Jews for Judaism too. You might consider contacting Penina Taylor directly. She also has a website where she posts the stories of other Jews who have returned from Xtianity. There is also Rabbi Tovia Singer's Outreach Judaism site.
Don't give up. Your relationship with G-d is worth it. You need to know that He has some special friends out there just waiting for you. He will put tests in front of you in order to help you strengthen your resolve that you want to come home completely. It's like falling down a steep hill, and then climbing back up....
Minneapolis, MN
The answer is no. It is avoda zara (Idol worship).
Anything that takes center stage in a Jew's life besides G-d is avodah zarah. Not having "any other g-d's" besides Him made it to the "Big Ten", after all.
Of course, anyone can do as he or she pleases. We're not in prison. However, all choices have consequences. The consequences of avodah zarah to a member of the nation -- the Jewish Nation -- which was brought into existence for the express purpose of teaching the nations the futility of avodah zarah are serious.
Yes, these congregations exist, and we know they exist, which is part of the reason why we are having this discussion. The really interesting thing about socalled "messianic Jewish" congregations is that the vast majority of the members are not Jewish. That should say something.
Minneapolis, MN
Riverside, CA, USA
Riverside, CA, USA
Katy, TX
Have you ever read Penina Taylor's book, "Coming Full Circle"? Her story is not totally parallel, as she was able to pull her family out when her children were young, and her husband converted. But it might help. Also, the Jews for Judaism website might have some stories from Jews who've left which may encourage you. I'm guessing perhaps you feel isolated, and that there are few who really understand your situation, which is contributing to that sense of isolation? Please forgive my presumption in guessing. I may be totally off in my guessing.
Minneapolis, MN
Riverside, CA, USA
Whether a small or large nation, our primary concern should be purity of our service to G-d and love towards one another. After a Discovery Seminar, the speaker assured the audience of largely assimilated Jews that he was not inviting them to a life of Torah and Mitzvot due to fear we would disappear.
Our treasure and deepest joy is serving G-d purely as stated in the Sh'ma. Yirmeyahu 31:34 assures us we will not disappear. Quoting the last part: “Thus said G-d: If the heavens above could be measured or the foundations of the earth plumbed below, so too would I reject the entire seed of Israel because of everything they did...." Knowing that in our bones is emunah and bitachon. That is when we live powerfully.
Believing in JC is the opposite of serving G-d in purity. It is avodah zarah (idol worship). When a Jew practices avodah zarah, intermarriage follows, also forbidden by the Torah, and a betrayal of our Divine Mandate.
Minneapolis, MN
Riverside, CA, USA
We've never been about numbers.
Minneapolis, MN
Riverside, CA, USA
Me first. I love the sense of security, of belonging. However, there is a liability attached. We will always be held responsible for our actions, and we are held to a higher standard.
G-d is gracious though. We are the first people to have expounded on that principle. The polytheists of old were busy trying to do whatever they could to appease their various idols, imagining that their lives were being toyed with as a form of entertainment by those idols.
In contrast, the Torah teaches the idea that G-d's ultimate purposes are for the benefit of all mankind, and that when we make mistakes, all we need to do is turn around (teshuvah), mend our ways, ask for G-d's forgiveness and our sins would be removed from us.
Animal sacrifice was never the primary method of teshuvah, let alone human sacrifice of some imagined godman, the entire idea of which is anathema to the Torah, the roots being in ancient paganism.
Minneapolis, MN
Riverside, CA, USA
Riverside, CA, USA
For the Jew, it is impossible to fulfill our purpose in this world without learning the place our Sages should hold in our thinking.
The view is not limited to Jesus. It includes Buddhism, New Age religious beliefs, Islam, Druidism etc. Anything except making HaShem one's center of gravity spiritually is avodah zara.
A Jew doesn't lose their status as a Jew because he or she chooses to be an idolater. On the contrary, because we have the unique responsibility of educating the world about why idolatry is a mistake with serious consequences attached to it, the Jew bears a heavier penalty.
Minneapolis, MN
Riverside, CA, USA
Minneapolis, MN
Riverside, CA, USA
Believe me, I have no reason to stand in judgement whatsoever. It just makes me weep for the heartbreak of it all. What gives me hope is teachings I have heard from different rabbis, that all the Jewish people will eventually be perfected, some through mitzvoth, some through suffering, (probably most of through a combination of both). So, perhaps those family members we have lost will come back to us someday. We can only do teshuvah, say tefilos for ourselves and those we love, and hope for a better day. And, teach those who will listen what we have learned from expensive mistakes.
All the best Chaya Fradle. I will say some prayers for you and your family, as well as my own today.
Minneapolis, MN
Riverside, CA, USA
On the other hand, believing in Jesus separates a Jew from his people, where he has a chance to learn NOT to be cruel to animals, as well as the rest of the ethics the Torah has given the world which make Jews and everyone else better people, thus making for a better world.
Belief in Jesus is idolatry plain and simple, and has consequences in World to Come, as well as in a Jew's ability to absorb the lessons of the Torah. By separating himself from the Jewish people, he then separates any children he has as well, which is cruel to them, robbing them of their birthright. I think being cruel to children is far worse than being cruel to animals.
Coon Rapids, MB
Riverside, CA, USA
"I read that even Jews who officially regard themselves as ATHEISTS are still regarded as Jews..."
True. That does not mean they have the privileges associated with being Jewish. They do retain the liabilities.
"in order to keep the Jewish people together as a culture and a nation."
A person born Jewish or who undergoes a kosher conversion is just always a Jew. That's the Jewish Law.
"... why on earth reject Jews who believe in Jesus?"
They are not rejected as Jews. No one will claim they are not Jews. Their beliefs are rejected as not being authentically Jewish.
"Why is every other thought system okay inside Judaism EXCEPT those who believe in Jesus?"
Learning from a Torah perspective (Orthodox) will reveal that this is simply not the case. There are outreach efforts for Jews caught up in all sorts of cults and religions. They all take a Jew away from his Divine mission, which can only be carried out within Torah Judaism.
Minneapolis, MN
Riverside, CA, USA
Houston, TX
We are an eternal people with an eternal calling. Those who opt out of the eternal calling will find that their particular family line will be "opted" out as Jews, somewhere between the second and fourth generation after apostasy.
It is possible to label a particular belief system as apostasy without labeling an individual. Such judgments of individual Jews is best left to a bais din (court of Jewish law). To recognize a given Jew as an apostate does not necessarily mean there is no compassion. Full restoration (with honor) always awaits such a person.
The LABEL "orthodox": First coined by the Reform movement in Germany, in a hostile, aggressive effort to marginalize Jews still proud enough to live as Jews.
Ref: "WorldPerfect" by R' Ken Spiro
Minneapolis, MN
Riverside, CA, USA
A Jew can't convert out of being Jewish, no matter what other religion he joins. However, in choosing to become an apostate, such a Jew loses all benefits and privileges of being Jewish, yet retains the obligations and penalties. Any Jew who abandons the Torah so seriously has cut himself and his children off from the Jewish people -- not merely an individual matter, because the Jewish people all mutually accountable to one another.
Minneapolis, MN
Riverside, CA, USA
the "poetic' comment sounds sarcastic and is not becoming to a daughter of Abraham
but be that as it may, putting "dark side" in all caps is being hateful
can you see that?
westlake village, ca
Tulsa, USA
Riverside, CA, USA
Moses asked G-d to take his life in Exodus in exchange for the sin of the golden calf. G-d said NO, only the person who dies for their sins is the individual who committed the sin. JESUS INCLUDED.
The facts of his birth are no different than any other mythical "virgin births" of which there are many. Jesus wasn't deified for over 300 years after he was dead and his flesh was long rotted away.
If a Jew wishes to remain a Jew, he or she CANNOT "accept Jesus as lord and Saviour" because the instant they do, they become Christians and Christians are NOT Jews.
We know who Socrates was, we know who Newton was, we know who a lot of people were, but there is not a mention of Jesus in any non theological book. If he was supposedly that important, someone would have mentioned him. But they don't.
Hurst, TX
Riverside, CA, USA
and it is used in modern day scientific and mathematical research--the belief is that if we could suspend our thinking for only a fraction of a nano second and imagine something totally different, what would it be?
would it be beautiful or
would it be chaos
can we for a flicker of a second suspend judgement of each other and see clouds of mystery which may clear to reveal a new way of life?
westlake village, ca
Riverside, CA, USA
Now I read all the comments
and here is mine:
When we all get to the world beyond or above or wherever we go in the next life, the main question will be
Who did you serve with love and humility
I think that if you went to the wrong church or belonged to any religion and just went along as a member of the team, without any heart or passion or real meaning --in other words, without consciousness, that could be a problem
But really I think G-d or the Judgement Seat is really going to want to know how you lived--who you loved and how you served and that will be the way you are judged.
westlake vill, ca
London, UK
Karen, I would love to meet you, thank you for your reflections, they mean a lot to me!
sloten, the Netherlands
Riverside, CA, USA
I agree with you that millions of people of different races and religions have been killed throughout the ages for religious or political reasons.
But that doesn't mean we have to give up on trying to learn from all that happened. All of us humans have the obligation to try and make this world a better place. We really should be able to learn how to respect each other.
It doesn't have to be on a monumental scale, you know. We can start in our own backyard. Every individual counts and if we manage to respect the ones closest to us, whether we disagree or not, it is a good start.
"Whoever saves one life saves the world."
Individual kindness is like a stone in the water. It expands, I'm sure of that!
loten, the Netherlands
Johannesburg, RSA
Johannesburg, South Africa
let's get more like our friend from the netherlands
agoura, ca
Riverside, CA, USA
I think it is not necessary to accept each others believes, but it is necessary to respect them.
I think that if a Jew wants to learn about Jesus and this makes him or her a more complete and better person, it is a wonderful thing.
i think that if a Christian wants to practice some of the peaceful ways of Buddha and this will help him becoming a better person, it is wonderful.
Religion is about making choices, it is about a deep and truthful wish of meeting G-d, of understanding His wishes for our individual lives. Religion is about seeking what He wants for us.
I believe that if we are sincere in our quest to serve and honour Him, there are many ways to find Him.
As for the Rabbi who wrote this article, I regret the sarcasm. If it is not your cup of tea, that's fine. But from a Rabbi, I just wasn't expecting the sarcasm, I guess.
(i know, you're human too, but still...)
sloten, the Netherlands
Does this religion seem to make me a better person?
Does it help the people I see following to lead better lives than others and become more moral?
And if following Judaism and believing in Jesus provides the answer yes to both of the above questions, then Judaism and believing in Jesus is fine.
But if the religion does not make even the dog and cat of a man better for it, I would not give anything for that religion.
But do not fret over which one is correct and or true.
You will go crazy
Just study and study and i would ask myself
In which study do I feel more peace with myself and with others?
More love of life and people?
Which one gives me a spring in my step and well being?
westlake vill, ca
Riverside, CA, USA
I lost contact with my friend's son but I only know that he has his own parish in Johannesburg and is a religious leader having ordained as the main priest in the Church. Very sad story.
Johannesburg, South Africa
Riverside, CA, USA
Why all this Kvetching? (Yiddish word that means complaining and worrying) You are all tied up in knots -- why?
Find a chabad near you--maybe you have to travel a bit to Raleigh or Asheville. So what. When i wanted to learn about the "real Judaism" I went up to Brooklyn and studied with the Rebbe (he shoudl rest in peace) of blessed memory.
So go and learn. Out here in Calif we have some Christian people in the Tanach class and in the Kaballa class, so nobody minds. Even once a nun came to classes. It is all good. And you should learn and decide for yourself.
Pray to G-d all the time.
Take what is helping you to be a better person.
Follow the inklings becasue G-d put them in you to follow.
Do not deny yourself--you are what He created you as, be the best you can be!
Learn.
If you do not find a Rabbi to teach you, come back here --I would like to know about it!
westlake vill, ca
London, UK
Even if one separated Jesus the Jew from Jesus the myth, the Torah is still the point. A Jew already has the Torah with or without Jesus.
slc
I ask the question. If one is born a Jew or converts, who/what can stop you from being Jewish? If you stop following the laws, commandments, etc. are you not still a Jew. If not so then tell me one person that keeps all the commandments, etc 100% of the time. A Jew is allowed to believe/study what a Jew wants to. A Jew is still a Jew. Can G-d stop being G-d?
Brooklyn, NY
2. "Thank you for your concern. I will think about it. Good bye."
3. "You have certainly done your job. Please tell your pastor you are doing great, and I'm sure you are a wonderful person, but I don't discuss my private matters with strangers."
4. This is not an appropriate time for debating religion. Thank you, though, for your thoughts. Then, take anything free they want to give you and throw it out if you don't want to read it. Again, you can always say, "Please leave me alone. You are invading my private space."
2. You can say, "I'd love to stay and chat but I just don't have time right now. If you will excuse me." and walk away.
3. You can say, if you want to argue, "I don't have to be grafted into G-d's people. I was born that way."
Harsh comments. But worse, inaccurate. To blanketly label all these converts "INVARIABLY" ignorant or psychologically imbalanced shows a lack of sincere objectivity and confidence in the faith. Only those who are afraid need resort to such vitriolic and baseless accusations.
Melbourne, Australia
Hurst, TX
Riverside, CA, USA
Riverside, CA, USA
Riverside, CA, USA
Riverside, CA, USA
If a blood sacrifice was required, there might be something to think about, but NO BLOOD ATONEMENT IS REQUIRED for the forgiveness of sins. And when blood WAS necessary, it was to atone for an UNINTENTIONAL sin only. Today, while we have no temple, obtaining forgiveness is a matter of turning away from the broken mitzvahs and completely turning away from what one has been doing. Look at Jonah, did the people of Nineveh have to make a sacrifice? No, repented and were forgiven by G-d.
Hurst, TX
It's possible - for a Jew who hasn't studied the messianic prophesies in the Hebrew Bible. A better question would be - How is it possible to read the messianic prophesies of Isaiah, Ezekiel et al and believe that the Messiah has already come?
In fact, it is this very problem that compelled the Church to invent the notion of a Second Coming (nowhere to be found in the Hebrew Scriptures as it won't be necessary).
Raleigh, NC
Portland, OR
London, England
they are funny. They use humor in thier little leaflets.
But you are right, they are not trying to get people to really be Jews for Jesus. They are trying to convert them.
While it is true and very horrible that Christianity has caused so much Jewish blood to be shed, the history of Christianity also includes the shed blood of many other peoples all over the world.
Can a Jew believe in Jesus. How could you not? He did exist. There is no doubt of that.
But he never said to forsake the law of Moses. that part is the biggest con in history. Paul made this new religion marketable by taking away all the difficult aspects of becoming Jewish and he also took away all the joys. To make it easier for gentiles to join.
However, Jesus actually never taught anything about making a church or giving up festivals and Kashruth.
westlake vill, ca
On you second point, quoting one of my own essays, no, we are not a race. But we are a people. Perhaps more concisely, a tribe. There are initiation rites and tribal rules. The point is that, while both are basic, the center of gravity is at the person, not the faith.
-
"Editor's Response:
The answer is simple: This is not a religion. It's a people. You can be the pope and if your mother was Jewish you're still Jewish. "
-
Really? Sounds like a contradiction. The article states:
".. All these attempts have had little or no success. Whether religious or not, Jews are reluctant to give up their Jewishness"
--
That sounds, that if you convert, you lose your "Jewishness".
That "singe people" notion contradicts another article too. This one:
chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/498027/jewish/Are-Jews-a-Race.htm
Quote:
-----
While the Jewish people began with the descendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, many people have converted to become Jews over the millennia--beginning with the "mixed multitude" that came with us out of Egypt. Today there are African Jews, Japanese Jews, even Eskimo Jews. It seems difficult to call such a mixture a "race".
cebu, philippines
The Rabbi is very right about the few Jewish leaders in these organizations, they ARE either ignorant of Judaism or had some bad experience with it. I have found that to be the case for many of the higher ups that I knew.
Ocala, FL
Nashville , Tn
brooklyn, NY
"Christianity did not build upon its Jewish foundation. It completely eschewed that Jewish base and built for itself a structure that is totally and fully a competitive, antagonistic institution in relationship to Judaism. One need only refer to the earliest conmmentaries of the Church Fathers themselves to verify this fact, which is not open to debate since the evidence is all in."
Tulsa, OK/USA
Bloomingdale, IL
she was caught and tortured with members of her family with her sister dying from the terrible conditions. she never gave up on her love and devotion of protecting our people i think we have a lot to learn from this remarkable person who went on to open safe houses and rest homes for jews after the war...
birmingham, england
chicago, IL/USA
If you begin to deny even the basic belief that the Torah is true, or that there even is a God... there's no need to continue the discussion.
One has to have something to go back to. An original to base the additions on (as Christianity claims the NT does).
Houston, TX
Boston, MA
Blomingdale, IL
Blair, NE
Bloomingdale, IL
There are NO contemporanius historic writings about Jesus. No historian or writer wrote about Jesus IN HIS TIME. The first historic reference to him are near the end of the first century, which are slight and highly questionable.
Josepheus for instance, who wrote 2 sentences refrencing such a man, was born in the year 37, nowhere near the time of Jesus.
Houston, TX
My negative statements are not directed towards Christianity in general, but rather Jewish evangelism. There are many very good Christians out there who have respect and love for the Jewish people and people in general.
Then there are those who are completely intolerant, teaching that the whole world must conform to their own religious beliefs or face eternal damnation.... it's those people that offensively harass the Jewish people and bring about such a negative view of a supposid peaceful and accepting religion.
Hugs go out to all the true Christian Zionists who support the Jewish people, refrain from evangelizing, and do so without an agenda.
Houston, TX
For some reason this forum does not allow links that I wanted to post (which is strange) but, anyway, simply do a search for "historical references to Jesus" and also "Acts of Pontius Pilate" and you will find many.
Chicago, IL
If he is not the Messiah, why does anything else matter?
Christians who end up leaving when they discover this struggle with this more than anything else.
It's simply difficult to let go of something you've put so much into, so much emotional attachment to, and many times it's been the focal point of that person's life.
It's heart wrenching and traumatic when that core is stripped away.
But at the same time, it's freeing and worth the discovery.
My advice to anybody that's really searching this subject: Pour all of your energy into studying Torah... true Torah. Don't rely on Christian translations (as written & chosen by the catholic church). Get it direct from the Hebrew. There's a library here at chabad.org for those who need a true translation - go to the LIBRARY section.
Houston, TX
Jews happen to be one of the best cultures for documenting everything. If it happened, it's documented. Funny that all of this took place, yet they don't record any Jesus. There's only one reference in talmudic sources that reference any such man and the timing of that reference don't match the supposed historic Jesus.
Other than the New Testament, there are no historic references to his existance... and certainly not to the scale that's reported in the NT. Considering all of the great writers of that time, isn't that strange?
The New Testament reports that after the resurrection, 500 people were raised from the dead. I have a hard time believing that the chaos that would surround 500 people coming back to life, dead spouses coming back to married wives, dead children returning to families... just from a hereditary standpoint, is it possible for that type of event to not be recorded anywhere else?!?!?!
Houston, TX
Regarding time, there are several calendar systems in use worldwide.
It's currently 1428 in the moslem year, 5769 in the Jewish year. India used to have around 30 different date systems. And, many more worldwide. The Western calendar is now a universal standard as it prevents confusion in business dealings - nothing else. So, religious systems/leaders have indeed caused different time systems to be established.
It's difficult to tell whether Jesus was a spiritual teacher any more than any other rural rabbi of that time. After all, most of the belief structure didn't exist until the Council of Nicea in 325 C.E. The attendees decided for themselves what they wanted the public to believe. Much earlier material was excluded and significant new "invented" material was added in order to reinforce the power of the clergy.
So, maybe respect for Jesus as a man, but not as a son of God.
Judaism was given by God directly to man, all other middle-eastern religions of that time and later, were created by men, generally to further their own political adgenda/power base. Judaism is therefore the only contender for a true religion.
London, UK
Baytown, Texas/usa
So I think the real question is, can a Jew "believe Jesus". Why not? He provided alot of reasons for us to believe. Maybe what these Jewish converts expereinced was real. Why not at least show them the respect you wish to be shown as well...?
lafayette, in
London, England
malaysia
London, U.K.
Why can't they believe whatever illogical material they want without feeling the need to ram it down everybody else's throats?
It's not a case of Jesus's merits and/or claim to be Moshiach, it's the "holier than thou attitude".
London, UK
canada
You're response to an honest question is to slander fellow Jews who *do* believe that Jesus is the Moshiach, then go on to confuse the issue by wasting most of your answer talking about the "Jews of Jesus" sect.
What kind of example do you think you're setting to others by dismissing such a serious issue as the Moshiach and whether or not Jesus of Nazareth was the Anointed One?
I find it very disturbing to see this level of ignorance at a place where people go for wisdom.
Groups like this target Jewish areas specifically. They go door to door, they browse the Kosher groceries, they are taught to attend JCC events, visit synagogues, blend in and befriend people in order to share "Messiah", they even disrupt the most holy places, like the Western Wall.
Shouldn't a Jew be able to pray at this precious site and not have to deal with the harassment, being tapped on the shoulder during prayer and asked "Do you know Yeshua?"
In my opinion, Jews have "ignored" them for too long. I admire the groups who stand up to them, tell them their not welcome, remove them from our synagogues, ect.
Houston, TX
Faith is not a toy you can throw away, its what you believe.
South Australia
For info on these rules, do a search here on "Noahide Laws".
chabadofbakersfield.com
the original apostles may have (mistakenly) thought Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah, but that doesn't mean they thought he was G-d, does it?
The answer is Yes. The fundamental belief of Chriatianity is that Jesus is God. The trinity concept that every denomination accepts. It's only Jehovah Witness' and some Seven Day Adventists that don't agree with the trinity (3 in one god-head). He is equal to the father and I'm sure you noticed uplifted hands in a praise & worship service. They worship G-d, but you'll also hear them worshiping and ending every prayer "in the name of Jesus". That's where they're wrong and it becomes Idolitry.
He is G-d and G-d alone, beside him there is no other.
Houston, TX
I was just wondering if you believe that all religions lead to God, or do only Jews get to go to heaven? Just wondering....
chabadofbakersfield.com
Pittsburgh, PA / USA
Hosea 2
The number of the people of Isreal shall be like that of the sands of the sea, which cannot be measured or counted; and instead of being told "You are not my people," they shall be called Children of the living G-d.
Miami, Florida
All I can say is, it is too bad that this laudable point of view has been almost entirely forgotten by Baptists and "Evangelicals" today
Santa Clara, CA
London, U.K.
The answer is simple: This is not a religion. It's a people. You can be the pope and if your mother was Jewish you're still Jewish. Or you can be the Dali Lama for that matter. On the other hand, if one day we would discover that the chief rabbi of Israel was really adopted and never converted, he would still need a conversion to be Jewish.
Tel Aviv, Israel
Explaining to Christians why a Jew rejects Jesus is easier said than done.
I'm a former Christian as well and for some time was involved in a ministry to the Jews. I personally faced the arguments on a nearly daily basis and know for a fact that I wasn't going to hear anything until I was ready. I'm finding the same for Christian friends, especially Jewish-Christian friends whom I wish would listen.
Christianity is very much an emotional religion. Emotional blinders are near impossible to penetrate. Until that person is willing to remove the blinder to even give the other side a glance, they'll continue to live in that world.
Believe me, I desperately wish it were as simple as having patience and explaining things better. It's painful to see so many Jewish friends in the church, some of which I feel somewhat responsible for.
Houston, TX
I was born into a Roman Catholic family but never believed it - mainly the statues thing. At 17 I became a Born-again Christian, but Jewish things called to me so I began to preach the keeping of Shabbat and Jewish feasts.
I came to Israel and fell in love with it. Shotly after I found out I am Jewish.
I am now trying to find documentary proof of this because I want to live Jewish. However, I think our people should make a more concrete effort in explaining why they do not believe in Jesus to their brethren who do instead of rejecting them and giving up on them.
Jerusalem, Israel
Jews cannot believe in Jesus, because he didn't fulfill the Torah's criteria for a messiah, hence he was a false messiah. The claim of divinity is even more incompatable with Judaism, as it contradicts several principle beliefs in the Torah about G-d, such as that He has no form, is One, and that there is no need for an intermediary between man and G-d.
I hope this helps clear up some confusion.
Judaism, unlike Christianity and Islam, is not a proselytizing religion. Because it teaches that the righteous of all nations shall enter the gates of heaven, it does not have any compelling urge to rescue non-Jews from hell. Jews are instructed to open a willing convert with open arms.
Jews and Christians recognize that Jews were G-d's chosen people whom G-d reveals Him and His ways to as it is indicated in the Hebrew Bible (or Old Testament for Christians) But that does not mean Jews are superior to anyone else. (see "Are Jews the Chosen People?")
As shown in the books of Jonah and Ruth (themes of relations and repentance) G-d's mercy is inclusive, G-d is open to all peoples.
See also
"The Story of Your Life" on chabad.org
As a child of a roman catholic father and seventh day adventist mother, I was raised to love thy neighbor.
I was raised roman catholic. I was confused by those who would act ung-dly outside of church justifying that a son of G-d saved them by dying for their sins. Faith is important but so is following the law. There can be no love without the law. How can you love someone if you're always breaking or violating their rules? Yes, humans aren't perfect. We're bound to make mistakes, stray off the righteous way, and take unrighteous detours but we must try to stay on the path that ultimately leads home, to G-d's heart.
When I first inquired about conversion, I was told that my name was of Hebrew origin. I was the only child of 5 who missed out on having a middle name. As a convert, I can select a Jewish one. I was born to be a Jew! That confirmed Jewish beliefs about mystical interpretation of conversions to Judaism, that a convert is someone w/ a Jewish neshama (soul) who is simply to find his/her way home.
You must understand where the people you approach about learning Judaism are coming from.
Although I'm sure you see absolutely nothing wrong with learning the "roots of your faith", those exact words are used in the newer movements of "Messianic Judaism" and "Hebrew Christians". The focus of these groups are the same as Jews for Jesus.
Somebody walking in, proclaiming their Christian faith, a minister, wanting to learn about Judaism. Wouldn't that be like a wolf getting training from the sheep he's about to kill?
The hostility was recently explained to me a bit shockingly. To you, those words "Hebrew Christian", "Messianic", etc are not shocking.
Considering the damage these groups have done to the Jewish people though, it's like walking in and saying "I'm Hamass, and I'd like a schedule of your services just because I'm curious".
My suggestion would be to research the answers given by Jews for Judaism.
Houston, TX
Pensacola, FL
Middlefield, OH/USA
Though I am not a jew or represent "Jew for Jesus" I am a Christian (as are "Jews for Jesus") and believe him (Jesus) to be the true messiah. my belief in this does not cause me to in your words "suspend logic and clear thinking". I could make the same statement in regards to the Jewish faith but think it has no place in a open honest dialog and consider it rather insulting.
The reason this person in question attempted to give out a new testament is because he wants to share the good news of Jesus. If your not interested why not just nay "no thank you" and be done with it. "Jews for Jesus is in fact a jewish organization in which many in the organization are in fact Jewish contrary to your statement that they are "non jews who take on jewish names".. I respect your defending of your faith but please check your facts first.
portland, OR
Tucson, AZ
NYC
jersey city, nj
OR-USA
Dededo, Guam
"There are many Jewish men and women with doctoral and even rabbinical degrees that have joined Christian churches from their own convictions. To say that those who join a Christian church are 'ignorants' it is also an insult to million of Christians. It is not wise to use that kind of language."
First of all, even the most intelligent people can be fooled. In my opinion, anyone who has been tricked by the xian church is ignorant in at least one way.
Lancaster, PA
One, the question of who is the Moshiach.
Two, the question over whether a divine essence can actually materialize itself in the flesh.
After all these years, the Xtianists continue to pester you over these questions.
Why don't they just take your word on it that there is a 'noahide law' against them committing idolatry (with no exception for the worship of the Galilean), and that the One True G-d can't be limited to a physical definition?
And why do Xtianists insist that what obviously started as the 'greek testament' and ended up in the hands of the Romans has to be Jewish?
Really, how did you get in the middle of it?
What will it actually take to get you out of the middle of it?
And ultimately the question is: Do you really need to wait for the Moshiach to answer all of the above?
If Jesus was indeed the meshiach would we not be living in peaceful times? would not the tragic deaths of those fighting for peace in our world be unneccessary? would not all sinfinful ways have been unequivically absolved if Jesus was the meshiach?
Perhaps my expectations for meshiach are too high?
For a believer in Jesus to say... "wait for the second coming?" what kind of strange and circular argument is that? Jesus couldn't do the job the first time because he's not "the one."
Coming back (and I thought the argument was that he triumphed over death, so isn't he" here" alreay?) isn't going to give him super powers. And by this point, his neshema could've already returned- maybe a couple of times- and this "savior's" soul is not found repeated. My not uncommon guess is that he was a charismatic man in the right time and right place- not unlike any other cult leader. But that's a different discussion.
Leeds England. , England
I was brought up in a Christian environment. I think I know the Christian gospel well, certainly well enough to argue back with J-'s Witnesses. I challenge anyone to point anything out to me that is opposed to Jewish thinking in any of the four gospels that are commonly available (apart from things that are obviously false such as the crucifiction story and the Roman governor washing his hands etc..) Jesus, if he existed, was clearly a reforming Jew who at all times encouraged people to obey the law of Moses.
By insulting the opinions of others we do ourselves down and it is our duty to respect other people if we do not agree with them and even if they do not respect us. Our obligation is to show by example and not by resorting to a holier than you attitude.
Warsaw , Poland
friendsoflubavitch.org
brooklyn, ny
chabadbrandon.org
It has been through my study of Judaism that my faith has begun to be strengthened. It is through a consciouse rooting out and rejection of the Helenistic and Constantinian influences on my faith that I have once again begun to seek G-d and rejoice in Him.
In short, it is through learning (slowly and awkwardly) about the roots of my faith that hope once more shines. I have been undone and redone by what I have discovered and am discovering.
My wife's heritage is Jewish and my father always maintained we were of Jewish descent. I have always had an unexplainable love for Israel and a sense of awe about the Tanak. I feel both an intellectual and deeply peaceful drawing towards Judaism so I have purposed myself to study and grow in both my knowledge and understanding.
Interestingly enough I can find no one who is Jewish who is willing to guide me in this study. And I can understand the hesitancy.
I agree with the above lettter - And because I do I understand the hesitancy on the part of those I've asked to help me along my way. They seem to be hostile when I approach them for help - and ultimately they recommend a couple of books and send me on my way.
So what am I to do? How do I help them understand that I am not a wolf in sheep's clothing but rather a lamb hoping to grow.
I wish my Christian fellows would realize what a wealth of knowledge they are missing when they assume there is nothing they need to learn from the Jews they approach. I wish, and try to help those I can understand, that they should be asking question and seeking to learn and not seeking to "convert".
I still struggle - caught in the middle - holding to my "christian" belief and yet feeling such an awesome love for Torah and G-d's people.
Any advise for my journey?
When you're approached by the J's for J remember that some are sincere and simply ill informed, some are just ignorant and, unfortunately some are yielding to an evil impulse they have yet to recognize.
Greensboro, NC