 | They could have learned so much from each other! Instead, the extremists hit the battlefield
129 Comments Posted
Great article. However, I disagree with the statement that "...attempting to resolve conflicts between evolutionary doctrines and Torah makes less sense than marrying a donkey to an ox". Maybe evolution is just one more of the "laws of nature...[that exist]... Because G-d generally chooses to work in consistent ways".
Sure, evolution is G-dless, but so are the theories of gravity, relativity, quantum physics, and chemical bonding. All those are the consistent laws that G-d decided to make operate apparently independent of Him, so why can't evolution be one more?
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and when there seems to be no reason or possiblity of understanding, right there is an opportunity for kindness and compassion. and maybe some "light" humor.
and, the moment to breathe and be thankful that we can simply be, breathe, and it's ok not to know.
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Mr. Freeman has already touched upon the answer to your question, Michael, in the example/dialogue given here between the Greek and the Jew, and the question of many gods vs. the one G-d. The Jew rebukes the Greek by telling him that there is only One G-d rather then many: 'many gods' can be independent of each other, for if they weren't they would be united into one. By contrast, nothing is independent of a G-d that is One.
Michael, I presume that you don't believe as the Romans once did that there is/was a separate god of wine named Bacchus, though wine may appear to you as an independent entity? Do you believe that there are 'many gods' for gravity, relativity, physics, and (of course) evolution, independent of each other?
You can invoke free will and step on the clutch and disengage the gears, thus making them appear to be independent of the car, but they still are not. The Jews transcended the Greeks, and Einstein transcended mechanics. Nothing escapes the clutches of He, The One
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I think I have somewhat of a response for your consternation you describe in your article. As I understand the subject matter, the Maccabeans cleansed the Temple but soon afterwards, the first Maccabean leader's descendents started fighting each other for control of the throne. As their fighting heated up, they turned into despotic rulers. these were not Greeks, but Jews, who were influenced by Greek lifestyle, and I believe, as the Torah describes, that this aspect of Jewish history is the reason anything bad ever happens to the Jews - because they mixed their lifestyles into the surrounding cultures' and they became alienated from God's only revealed truth.
So perhaps the Greeks and the Jews did not really have anything against each other, but as some Jews became seduced by Greek lifestlye, the lines between Jewish and Greek became blurred, a situation that was not rectified until 1948. Shalom
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Everything Rabbi Tzvi touches - or writes on - turns to gold. I loved this article. Chag Sameach, Rabbi Tzvi!
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"You're right about one thing: The whole Chanukah story was completely out of character for Ancient Greece. I don't believe there was any other culture they ever oppressed or forbade."
I'm sorry to correct you but the Greek empire was quite oppressive throughout its domain. For more clarification on this topic, and for an actual account of the subject when it occured, read Thucydides' "On Justice, Power, and Human Nature."
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Tzion is spelled Tsade-yud-vav-nun sofit.
Yaven is spelled yud-vav-nun sofit.
The difference between Jew and Greek is the letter tsade, which stands for righteousness. The difference is that Jews do this or that for the sake of righteousness, and Greeks do this or that for their own sense of right (or wrong)... the diff is HaShem. simple....
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That argument between the Greek and the Jew is similar to modern day arguments. The "reason only" person can't get past the "Gd said so, so I do it" of a religious person. They see it as foolish superstition.
A workable reply is, "the part of creation I do understand, and the part of the rules of living I accept, they reflect a well thought out intelligent design. There is enough perfection in what I do understand that I will put some faith in the part I don't yet understand. Like when a mathematician derives some new law of nature with math, but has not yet observed it".
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The Greek/Western mind and language is polar opposite to the Hebrew. The Greek is linear, static and concrete. The Hebrew is circular, motion and mystical. We think and speak in an english western language a descendant of Greek thought, and have tried to translate the Hebrew into Greek and lost concepts that can not be translated. Reason and logic does not go well with a burning bush, or parting seas. The greeks were not as tolerant as they write thier history to imply. The peoples they conquered did not see them as liberators.
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Speaking of the Greeks, let's take it from the viewpoints of Plato and Socrates, and the problem of Athenian democracy:
Any of you at all familiar with Plato's "Republic"?
It's main theme: The problems with, and breakdown of, the world's first attempt at what was basically a secular liberal democracy.
The Athenians attempted a true democracy, but instead chaos prevailed: If secular rationalism is the top form, and everyone is always screaming for equal say all the time, and there is no G-d above it all????.
And thus, like a tower of babble, it was collapsing.
Plato suggested a 'representative alternative' to democracy; a republic; with the introduction of a G-d above all to promote a certain foundational order; but he never suggested a reform of the idolatry that went along with the myths of the Greek religion and it's corrupting influence.
It took the Jews, and the giving of Torah, to bring such a reform to the world.
And todah rabbah for that.
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Numenius the Pythagorian commented on The Republic, "What more is Plato than Moses speaking Attic Greek?"
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What once may have kept the Jews and Greeks from getting along is now a major point of division for many others.
In your outreach ministry for Chabad I'm sure you have encountered many Jews yourself, all too many of whom consider themselves to be 'secular liberal' more so then bound to Torah.
There are many nowadays who seem to think that being secular liberal is the 'new' and 'progressive' alternative/replacement for G-d and Torah.
The truth is though that the problems of liberal democracy, and it's instances of failure, are actually older then the giving of written Torah and it's formal acceptance.
The Torah is actual the newer, and still could prove to better at what allows our world to 'progress'.
Plato's 'Republic" actually reveals that civilization does not, as secularists would imagine, evolve of it's own accord: Liberal democracy still has the same problems it did 2,500 years ago.
Progressive change actually started with Torah, not the other way around.
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From a historic point of view what is really going on in Maccabee period, as between Jews and "Greeks" in Alexandria, is tensions within Jewish communities with labeling as "Greek" of anyone not conforming to the orthodoxy, (not our orthodoxy today), and in many cases anyone who was a political opponent. 95% of us today would qualify for the charge of "Greek."
In fact we thrived and transformed from a temple based to a true philosophical religion in the Hellenic city states which were more tolerant toward others than any state or system until modern times. On Holy sites, central temples were seen as civic institutions. This meant inclusion for anyone seeking to worship their deit/yies their way. We see that today as pollution, but it is simply wrong to claim, that we were targeted by the "Greeks" (in this case meaning the Hellenic city state administrators, Greek Jews, or actual Greeks) for “seduction” or the desecration was intentional.
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David writes: "95% of us today would qualify for the charge of "Greek.""
Not so sure. The Maccabees weren't fighting against all aspects of Greek culture. After all--much of it, such as their script and architecture, originated with the Jews. The revolt was against the attempt to quash the distinct heritage of the Jewish People.
Allowing everyone to do their thing sounds nice, but that's not what Hellenism achieved. Hellenism trivialized the distinctions between cultures and homogenized the most crass elements into a mushy whole. Antiochus then was the Wal-Mart of today.
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Thank you Rabbi...a lovely articulation of the increditble truth that with and in the Jews, G-d entered time in a manner only dreamed of by the Greeks with their multiple manifestations of anthropromorphic gods. G-d above time, working in time through the Jews, has revealied to all the essence of what it is to be human.
I am Roman Catholic...how you say can I say what I say about the Jews or be what I am given what I say? Because it is the truth. Long live the Jewish people. Long live Israel and long live the memory of the oving reality of G-d's reaching into the time He created and teaching all of us in and through the Jewish people.
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The Greeks wanted every one to be like them. There's much to admire in Platonic and Aristotelian philosophy. We must never stop contemplating reality. That's fine insofar as it goes. Jews understood though that reality is not of this world but beyond it and unlike Plato's Forms, this things of this world do not have an idealized representation elsewhere. Everything in the world was created by G-d and already declared to be good. And this is alien to the Greek mind. For things do not appear to what they are but to the Jew the world is as G-d made it and it is man's duty to work with G-d to improve it.
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I loved the article - especially the line about intellect being the highest principle lacking a guiding light. The only criticism I have (and criticism is too harsh a word) is the misuse of the term 'rice-Christian'. A rice-Christian is not some religious syncretist, but someone forced to convert in order to receive food from missionaries in times of famine. As Jews have a history of forced conversion to Christianity, I feel a little more sensitivity about the issue is justified. Sorry if that sounded condescending, but I thought it was only fair (to those unfortunates who are pejoratively called 'rice-Christians') to clear that up.
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Hi David in Baltimore!
Incorrect - As cultural bridges to Greeks, Hellenized Jews became politically favored and were given both monetary and military might from the Assyrians. They used this power to push their agenda which assisted them in bringing such wonderful Greek civilization to the Jewish people as punishing circumcisions with the death penalty. The Greek Jews were not the Universalists you claim.
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I wonder how long it will take Orthodox Judaism to stop fighting evolution as though it can be proven. How do we not know that this is G-d's planning? Man is not at the top of the food chain; viruses, bacteria and even spider and insect venom can destroy a human being in minutes. Bacteria have evolved to be immune to all that science can toss at them; viruses can change virtually overnight making vaccines impossible to manufacturer before the virus mutates. How Judaism can close its eyes to evolution is beyond me. I've also met ultra-conservative Jews who insist that the Earth is only about 6,000 years old. So much for science.
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Last year scientists said it was 20 billion, this year 12 billion. Whats a few billion here and there? =)
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Your answer is wrong. Current estimates of Earth's age is between 4.5 and 4.6 billion years. Methods used to find the age of the earth involve radiometric dating of meteorite samples, which would have formed at the same time as the earth. You confused the approximate age of the UNIVERSE with the age of the earth ~20 billion years. Cosmology is an exact science, but that said, there is no way that the earth is only 6,000 years old. The Gov. of Alaska claims that men and dinosaurs walked the earth at the same time. Until this year--2009--the Texas State Board of (mis) Education kept trying to deny science, i.e. Darwinism and other science by saying "it is only a theory." The problem is that they do NOT want to understand what a theory is. Einstein's famous theory I=I/R although still called a theory is as close to fact as you can get. Is science and religion opposed to each other? No, not at all. But religion does look rather silly when it turns its back on science.
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Is how old is G-d and I believe that to be infinite. Cosmologists say that the universe began with the "big bang." How many of those Big Bangs have occurred nobody knows. Steven Hawkin's "A Brief History of the Universe" explains the difference between theory and fact much better than I can. Does that mean that I do not believe Torah? Certainly not. I do not believe that the Earth was cobbled together in six 24-hour days. It could have, but it takes an incredible stretch of the imagination to accept that. A more current thought is that the last ice age retreated about 6,000 years ago, that is where people get the idea that the Earth itself is 6k years old. I pity children who are brought up to believe in a 6k year-old earth only to find out that they have been lied to by their fundamentalist schooling.
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Rabbi,
It is clear that you are not using historic sources and are making sweeping generalizations that are simply not true. Greek architecture came from us?
Ronn BenHarav,
Punishing circumcision with death was part of "Greek civilization?" Please get an education. a) that was a Jewish Greek punishment, not a Greek one. We FLOURISHED in Greek city states which were tolerant in an unprecedented scale in the ancient and classical world int eh region. You are taking a slice, informed by polemic statements that don't pass basic vetting and forming your own myopia.
Current Jewish culture, including but not limited to our religious Judaism post temple based, is profoundly Greek. We copied their methodology and worldview.
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David,
It's unbecoming of a Jew to get so upset over a few words. Lets just exchange stories and see where the discrepancy lies as its clear we are reading different history books.
In my version, the Assyrian Greeks took over of Israel at the behest of Antiochus IV, the leader of the Assyrian Greek Empire (Not Jewish). He sent over dozens of battalions to Israel to ensure that Greece would not lose control of Judea, as Jews wouldn't assimilate (i.e.circumsize kids). The Greeks burned, raped, crucified pillaged, immolated and terrified the Jews. (not tollerant)
The Hasmonian Macabees (Jewish) in my version had to hide (not flourish) in woods for 25 years and fight off hundreds of thousands of bloodthirsty Greek mercenaries. About 5 years into this long and brutal war there is a story describing the Maccabean recapture of Jerusalem and its temple from the Greek occupation at which point they rededicate the temple. (Chanukkah means rededicate in my version)
How does your version go?
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Hi Beverly,
Genesis describes the entire universe being created in 7 "days". The Earth is just part of that story. (There is a great book on the commonalities of the big bang theory and Genesis called "in the beginning". There are several books with this title and the author escapes me, I'll try to find out for you in another post.)
Regarding 24 hour periods, that's tough to say. By religious standards, the sun wasn't created until day 4 in Genesis. And by Scientific terms, the big bang is hard to correlate with any notion of time given the theory of relativity in play at the big bang...time cannot exist without an observer (matter) flying through space. The big bang is described as ex-nihilo, from nothing, all matter ever burst forth from an infinitesimally small point. From which perspective are we viewing time? If one is "within" the matter, there is one time, and if one is observing the matter from outside, another. By that notion, I wonder what day is today=)
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the earth. THAT is what it says...began making, not made. Nobody knows for certain how old the universe is nor how old the earth really is, but any one who feels that the answer is 6,000 can keep that concept, it's okay by me. However, I am not a simpleton. G-d gave us BRAINS to think with. I'm not going to attempt a scientific conversation in 1K sessions. Big Bang? Hashem CREATED everything by the word of his mouth. Isn't that sufficient? A second in His time is an unknown quantity of time. I hold a doctoral degree in computer science; I am not an archeologist nor a cosmologist, but I have the brain Hashem chose to give me and it tells me loudly and clearly that the fossils in my backyard are millions of years old, not six thousand years old. Sorry if I choose to not to meddle around in areas in which I am not expert. But I will roar with laughter at any modern person who persists in thinking that the world is flat and only 6K years old.
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Hi Beverly,
I'm not really sure about the exact age...I don't necessarily think that the universe is or isn't 6000 years old, but have heard some very educated and interesting opinions from several religious scientists in Hebrew University who make a pretty good case.
I do think taking such a sarcastic and caustic response to someone with an open mind to the subject is unfortunate. I thought you wanted to discuss the issue in this thread because you wrote a public comment on the topic...I will have to agree to disagree then.
Best,
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I'm being caustic? Sorry, you confuse honesty with negativity; that's your problem not mine. This is not the place nor time to discuss things which cannot be proven one way or the other, so why waste time on that when there is so much more that IS important, such as teaching Jewish youngsters about the dangers of Christian missionaries, which is my main preoccupation.
Do you pray? If so, go carefully read the Amedia where it clearly shows that G-d has given us intelligence and understanding. He did not mean for us to dig a hole called "religion" and hide in it. The very first verse of Torah hints of the antiquity of the universe and even the earth. I tried to point that out in my previous remarks. You are more than welcome to your views, it does not bother me. However I prefer to be a human being and USE the intelligence G-d gave me rather than try to take Torah literally; I am not a Baptist.
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This reminds of so many experiences I have in life. In science, it was faith that allowed invention. Science was only a way I could communicate this idea to an atheist discipline. At one time, my superior threatened to fire me for going to fast with my ideas and not checking myself with the scientific method. I complied, but then after months past, I proved all of them were true by the scientific method. I felt like this was a waste of time, but it was the proper procedure for a godless discipline. The combination of chochmah and binah was science for me by enabling me to dip into the infallible Ayn Soph that ideas arise from. For me, the scientific method was fallible, but faith was not. The "dot in the palace" worked, not chaotic stabbing in the dark, even though my discipline said otherwise. Science cannot explain WHY we have ideas that work, or WHY only some people have ideas that work, and for me those questions are only answerable through emunah.
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I especially liked the dialog portion of this piece. Very well written. Thanks for sharing it.
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I read the article with great interest. I would simply like to add the following. The key difference between the "classical" ancient Greek mindset and the Jewish one had very little to do with G_d. The greek religion was a pantheistic i.e the various gods were not omnipotent, but subject to -anagke and hybris-. Most importantly religion did not play a major role in the runing of the polis - it had only ritualistic value. Here is the big difference between the two view points. The Greeks did not believe in a Truth or Law by revelation (see the Law of God) but they accepted the chaotic nature of the universe and society as the point of departure. With this in mind they set to put order in the chaos by establishing their laws -the calmination of this was classical Athens- and most importantly they were ready to question anything including the system that they estabblished. Nothing was off limits of questioning.
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I wouldve hoped by now in the day and age we live in that all people of all faiths would attempt to peacefully co-exist, show respect for each others teachings from God, try to understand all of how the faiths of each religion evolved from and why they separated. It would be very good for all countries to seek this and then attempt to meld a compromise of peaceful, diplomatic co-existence for all mankind, work together before we destroy each other.
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The Jews and Greeks could no more get along that oil and water can mix. The reason for the longest hatred on the face of the earth (Jew hate) is based on the fact that we brought ethical monotheism to the world when the world wants to be able to use the pagan sense of the survival of the fittest. We Jews were chosen by G-d to spread the light of kindness and love. In Judaism there is no such thing as letting the poor die in the streets, while in pagan countries that is exactly what they do. The Greeks were polytheists. They, along with the Romans had no ethics. If a child was born inconveniently, then it was taken out to die from the elements or by being devoured by animals. They, like the rest of the non-Jews world could not understand why we were not like THEM; thus there was no basis for cooperation. It is the same today as it was back then: The world wants to be able to live with no ethics; our presence forces them to live humanly.
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Yes, friend, it would be nice if people of all faiths could get along, but they can't because most religions, outside of Judaism, say that unless you believe as THEY do, they're going to hell. Judaism teaches something different. All individuals who follow the seven laws of Noah have just as much right to the world to come as anyone else. Most people do follow those laws without knowing it, so no problem, right? Wrong. While Judaism teaches that everyone has an equal shot at the life to come, we are hated because we brought ethical monotheism into the world. Most people, given the chance, would be flat-out pagans. That was the reason for the Holocaust and that is the reason for all of the pogroms that have existed for the past 25 or so thousand years. One would think that after all the thousands of year that Judaism has been around, the world would be used to us by now...sadly, however, they aren't..
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The Jews and Greeks could no more get along that oil and water can mix. The reason for the longest hatred on the face of the earth (Jew hate) is based on the fact that we brought ethical monotheism to the world when the world wants to be able to use the pagan sense of the survival of the fittest. We Jews were chosen by Hashem to spread the light of kindness and love. In Judaism there is no such thing as letting the poor die in the streets, while in pagan countries that is exactly what they do. The Greeks were polytheists. They, along with the Romans had no ethics. If a child was born inconveniently, then it was taken out to die from the elements or by being devoured by animals. They, like the rest of the non-Jews world could not understand why we were not like THEM; thus there was no basis for cooperation. It is the same today as it was back then: The world wants to be able to live with no ethics; our presence forces them to live humanly.
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you are correct beverly and yes the holocaust DID OCCUR, and I cant comprehend why people want to avoid that it happened at all, its so sad to think of the miliions of people who died of all faiths during that time period of barbaric, inconceivable injustice, I have taken care of some of those survivors and known some of the survivors whose faith, tenacity for life, kept them alive and have treasured their release ever since and remembere d those whoperished ,I learned many things from them, thats why I am so emphatic our lives must be lived in peaceful harmony, I was taught to show respect to no matter who you are or what faith you are, learn something from these people, it could be the benefit to your life of learning, they can teach you perserverance.
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1) Follow the Laws of Noah, (2) Know that there is One above us, Who created us in His own image, Who loves us and provides us with guidance and instructions. Why? Because we need help with the things that are beyond our human reason and understanding. (3) If we follow these divine (and historic) guidelines, we will be blessed - though not necessarily on our own schedule. Question: What religion and gender am I who imposes this question? Now, which of these three would best describe me? (1) I am a Jew (2) My belief structure would make me critical of Judaism (3) I am of a faith that you would criticize?
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Just few clarifications to Beverly Kurtin's post. Firstly Greeks were not polytheists but pantheists, there is a big difference. Morevoer to say that Ancient Greeks did not have ethics is interesting not least because the very word "ethics" has Greek origin "Ήθος" (ethos), some of the most important books of Aristotle are on Ethics (Nicomachean Ethics and Eudemina Ethics), where justice and morality are explained. Socrates was the first moral philosopher. The key difference between the ancient greek and ancient jewish view point was that Greeks did not believe in a Truth or Law by revelation (see the Law of God) but they accepted the chaotic nature of the universe and society as the point of departure. On that basis they tried to agree on rules that would organise their societies. As for the myth of handicapped children being left to be eaten by animals refers only to Sparta and in fact is not true. Agesilaus the Spartan King was born with a handicap.
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I do believe it to be very possible that the world is exactly 5770 years old as of this year.Has anyone read 'The Self- Aware Universe' by Amit Goswami, PhD? The author's premise is that self-aware consciousness actualizes the physicality of the material world - and before that consciousness 'takes notice' of something, only quantum possibilities exist, not actual physical realities. It could be that god created Adam to be this kind of consciouness (although not fast enough for the serpent??) and that with the awakening of Adam (5770 years ago?) the world dropped into existence, complete with the 'tracks' of the line of possibilities that led to the moment of Adam's awareness. To me it seems very short sighted to discount the statement that the world was created 5770 years ago based only on what is already becoming 'old science'. Scientific beliefs change all of the time. New discoveries are made and old models are replaced by new ones. Science is not law - it is a useful tool.
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I have a disagreement about the terminology used to define from where everything exists.
You say "out of nothing". Out of nothing? Is it not all comming from the One-Blessed be He? Isn't He behind the unknown, inclusively? Isn’t He the unknown Himself? Wasn't He wondering to create Creation in those 6 days?
Couldn't this "nothing"be His conceptions, desires, directions... , unknown to us-at least most of the time-being implemented, in many ways, in our lives in order for us to keep on in His direction?A kind of eternal nourishment for us in order to keep on and on and on?
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"Nothing was off limits of questioning" for Greeks, you say.
So, in your point of view, why were Jews off limits for Greeks?
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My bad, they were pantheists;l I hate when my brain does that to me <G>. Yes, they had some forms of ethics, but their ethics did not mesh with those of the Israelis. Child abandonment was fairly common throughout the general area of Greece and Rome; at least that is what my history books say; if I'm wrong, I apologize, blame the scholars. In any event no Greek would ever have the nerve to say, as we have done for a few thousand years, "Hear O Israel, the Lord our G-d is one." One and indivisible; G-d doesn't become man, man doesn't become G-d. No Greek back then would accept that. In any case <thunk> that is the sound of my palm hitting my forehead. Happy Hanukkah...if ya got 'em, light 'em.
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You are correct pantheism is very different from polytheism. Pantheism accepts that the deities are nothing more than manifestations of something wider than them. You also raise a very interesting issue about the accuracy (or rather lack of)of history in the books in various schools. Especially for Sparta there are so many misunderstandings. The answer of course is for one to read/ investigate further. With regard to the notion of the ONE as the substance of the world I simply refer you to the works of presocratic philosophers such as Anaximandros and Herakleitos. I also would like to mention Pythagoras whose philosophy had also religious crossovers in the sense that he understood the Kosmos as something structured that follows mathematical norms and ultimately derives from the ONE (this is why the number one is considered so important in Pythagorianism). Furthermore this is probably the reason why Greeks were so receptive to Christianity.
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I am afraid I did not understand your question. What do you mean when you ask:
"So, in your point of view, why were Jews off limits for Greeks?"
What I said was that the Greeks' view point of the world especially with regard to the organisation of their societies was of self-determination i.e. they agreed the rules that govern their society. When I said that nothing was off the limits of questioning I meant that even the structure/rules of the polis that they agreed was/were potentially challengeable. In other words Greeks did not accept that "Zeus or a higher unchallengeable authority ordered that THIS is THE LAW that would govern our society".
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OK Jews, lets take it back! Hanukkah is now a holiday about the ethical Greekialites who passively served the one god that Pythagoras believed in who ended up being a 3 monotheistic gods instead of 1...
Wow... to think we were wrong for 2000 years...And all this time we were celebrating a moral/spiritual and military victory over the Assyrian Greeks who slaughtered swine on the holy alter and murdered our ancestors until we fought back and re dedication of The Temple to the one G-d that took us out of Egypt...
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@Beverly Kurtin, wrote: "The Jews and Greeks could no more get along that oil and water can mix. The reason for the longest hatred on the face of the earth"
The hatred of some the ancient Jews for things Greek to which your refer is not really a hatred of Greeks but rather a hatred of assimilation
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Your summary is very interesting! But just to clarify a small detail that possibly passed unnoticed. My comments did not say at any point about a right or a wrong perspective simply about a different prespective. (Maccabe good basket ball-team too!!) All the best brother.
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David I agree with your observation.
In addition I would say the following and I hope I will not be misinterpreted. Modern Jews especially German-Eastern European Jews have demonstrated a lot of the qualities that are compatible with Greek ideals such as critical thinking and excellence in the fields of science and beyond.
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J: We don't eat milk with meat.
G: Why not?
J: G-d says so.
As Maimonides pointed out, G-D never said any such thing. What is prohibited is "seething a kid with...". Look it up. The Jews elaborated on this law to end up not mixing milk with meat.
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Your reasoning tends to make me DISBELIEVE the Torah. It is a blessing and a compliment to think we Jews are IRRATIONAL? That believing in the US vs THEM philosophy is a PEACEFUL existence? Yet, on the other hand, just today in my all Christian building during the Christmas party, a few people verbally attacked me for WHAT I put on my plate, what I did and didn't eat, and what I chose to take home. The manager also told me what I can and can't do with the food at the party. She said I should JUST KNOW because IT IS ASSUMED everyone does things the same way. I FELT terrible! In my opinion, there are just some things in life in which there is an "us" and a "them" way of thinking. I can't believe it is productive toward world harmony, however.
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oh wow i howled with laughter at this article the conversation between the greek and the jew was bang on the button although not jewish i follow the jewish law as a gentile as been guided to do so hilarious this was who cares why grass is green it just is do we need to know i suppose today we are all a mixture of the two ways of thinking which is probably for the best as both have truths in them lol the funniest thing i have read for quite a while
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Dear Beverly;
You are mistaken that the ancient Greeks had no ethics. Hippocrates the father of Western Medicine was a Greek who gave us the Hippocratic Oath for doctors to take. That Greek oath opposes euthanasia, abortion and disclosing private/personal matters of patients to others.
The ancient Greeks believed that all human beings, INCLUDING their enemies share a common humanity. Greeks also acknowledged their own shortcomings, admitting that they knew the right but cannot do it.
Greek and Jews have not been traditional enemies. Greek mercenaries fought WITH ancient Israel's armies by the thousands. And they usually won.
At the Aereopagus in Athens there was an altar dedicated to the UNKNOWN GOD that was/is the God of the Bible.
In the 2nd Book of Macabees, the Spartans and the Macabees made an agreement of Brotherhood to help each other.
Greek was the first European language that the Tanahk was translated into it.
Greeks and Jews usually got along.
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Of course the desecration of the Temple by the “Greekialites” was wrong and the Jews were absolutely right to fight back. And I’m glad they won. But it was also wrong when John Hyrcanus a Jewish leader, forced conversions on the Idumeans. It was also wrong for him to kill and enslave innocent Samarians, and send them into slavery so as to expand the Judean State. Those Samarians that were killed were said to be Macedonian settlers - Greeks.
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Thank you Rabbi Freeman for another brilliant, inspiring and clarifying article. I have one question:
"We need to know because in a very real way, Chanukah lives on. Our society today is a bizarre grafting of these two cultures, the Hellenist and the Jewish. If this conflict existed back then, the question is, has there been some resolution over time? Or are we still fighting Greek elephants? Simply put: Is our society schizoid?"
The term "schizoid" refers to withdrawal and inability to form close relationships, and I don't see how this fits in the sentence or what you are trying to say using this word with this statement.
Thank you.
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You're going to have to find that Maimonides quote for all of us. Maimonides writes clearly in his Mishneh Torah and elsewhere that the prohibition to eat milk and meat is a "chok"--a law for which we are not given any reason.
Crazy as it may sound, it makes sense to have rituals without reason. I don't mean non-sensical rituals, but rituals that cannot be falsified and are not done for practical purposes. These serve to bond Jews with one another as a community, and to bond that community to its G-d.
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One of the very things that attract me to the Jewish people and their ways and religion is this actual answer Tzvi Freeman gives. May G-d bless him and his family.
I love the humour and inventive way a Jewish person gives answers and descriptive versions of things. To put a whole conversation into the picture. I just LOVE it.
Th reason why the whole world has a problem with the Jewish people is the fact they set themselves apart from the world and live entirely for G-d alone. The Bible is full of examples showing Jewish people won't bow to false gods they would rather die than do so. I love this about the Jewish people.
I can gaurentee than beautiful men like Joseph, may G-d bless him, spoke just like Tzvi and charmed his way into the kings favour becoming a ruler during a bad famine.
No man shall bow to statues, and the Jewish people st the greatest example.
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Although I am a Greek, I will answer as a scientist:
Greek: So tell us about your gods, Mr. Maccabee.
Jew: Um, that's singular.
Greek: You mean truth is unique?
Jew: The truth comes from God.
Greek: But there's only one God, so only one truth.
Jew: Obviously.
Greek: Review your beliefs. Everyone has a piece of truth. And, there's no such thing as truth eventually.
Jew: God is true and God is truth.
Greek: Beware! A day may come, when powerful people believing that they work for "truth" may attack you own nation and perform a holocaust.
Jew: My God will protect me.
Greek: Your self should protect you. And the only truth that there is, is you and I, and you cannot exist without me, and I cannot exist without you. The rest is just blah, blah, but the underlying belief that only one truth exists, jeopardizes us all. Reconsider please.
And we all know what followed. And still, we haven't learned.
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Jew:
Why there is "you and me"?
Why is you and me the only truth?
Why can I not exist without you and you without me?Why?
Which rest is blah,blah ?
Why the underlying belief that only one truth exists jeopardizes us all?
Why should I reconsider?
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Of COURSE the Greeks had ethics; where that came from I've not the foggiest idea as I can't recall what I was thinking at the time. But what makes us Jews different from every other group of humans is our manifesto, if you will, that Our G-d is ONE and ONLY ONE.
I have to pas this anecdote along for what it is worth. I formerly worked as a publisher's rep. Some of our titles were of interest to Christian bookstores. One day an elderly man assumed I worked at the store in which I was taking inventory of my company's books. "I want a copy of the HOLY BIBLE" he commanded. "The one Jesus and the apostles used." The owner of the store winked, so I looked at the bible shelf and there was no copy of the Torah. So I handed him a copy of the Septuagint and told him to pay for it up front. He opened it up and shouted, "I CAN'T READ THIS, IT LOOKS LIKE GREEK!" Yes sir that's what you asked for, please pay up front." With that the owner rescued me as I ran outside and cracked up.
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The only thing we can be sure about, is that I exist and you exist; to be sure: that I exist and therefore you exist and vice versa.
The explanation is rather complicated, but if you are really interested, google "on constructing a reality", get the pdf and read it.
About the truth: there are truths, only for practical reasons. Those truths are tools, so to say, to deal with the needs of the humans. And therefore, are subject to change, as long as the needs are changing.
Try to reconsider the human history: The nazis believed they had the "truth", the Hutus in Rwanda, did something similar, the Serbs in Bosnia, etc.
And why? WHY?
We have not a way to weight truism. The only reasonable thing to do, is us humans understand that we cannot know the "ultimate truth" - if such a thing exists, we could not even imagine its existence, let alone its nature.
So, let's be humble, friendly, helpful and try to fight back the one and only truth.
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"The only reasonable thing to do, is us humans understand that we cannot know the "ultimate truth" - if such a thing exists, we could not even imagine its existence, let alone its nature"
"So, let's be humble, friendly, helpful and try to fight back the one and only truth."
If you admit that there may be an ultimate truth,why should we fight it back ?Fight what back?What do you want to fight back?
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Re: "Our G-d is ONE and ONLY ONE"...Not to be argumentative, but Christians believe that too. If you're referring to the Christian concept of the Trinity, that's still one G-d, just as you, your soul and the words that you speak are the essence of "you-ness"- just different aspects of you.
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blah blah blah shows ignorance, you ran out of words after your child play.
There is only one truth, one G-d. One day you will find this out and will look at the Jewish people and wonder why you didn't listen.
There is only 1 truth G-d's.
There is only 1 G-d And when the one G-d brings His truth to light the world shall see His people...........
As for the holocaust you so cruely refer to, G-d will bring all people who dares to persecute a Jewish person into judgement and they will be sorely sorry indeed. I look forward to that day when the Jewish people will stand on the right hand of G-d and their enimies will beg for mercy..
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@Carmen
There may be an ultimate truth. For me, (as a human) it is only you and I I know, and I spent my life on that plane. I didn't say to fight back the Truth. I said to fight back the misleading idea that we got it.
@Mary, San Clemente
The same is true for the Christians of course. BTW I *am* a Christian, but my belief unites me with everybody, despite their religion.
@Dharma, Adekaide
You said: "G-d will bring all people who dares to persecute a Jewish person into judgement and they will be sorely sorry indeed...the Jewish people will stand on the right hand of G-d and their enimies will beg for mercy.. ".
That's my point exactly. So thought the Nazis and decided to bring that day closer. Can't you see the contradiction?
We do not have a meter for truism, so only respect to other's belief's is a way to get along. And enlighten them that their belief, is only *their* belief (and so is mine, yours, etc.).
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And, btw, my God does not split people into Christians and not believers, but to good (people who love people) and bad (people who hate people based on any kind of discrimination).
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I don't mean to be picky, but Jews in that period probably didn't understand God in purely ontological terms. That is a byproduct of Greek philosophy itself. Their wasn't this Ontological divide between 'creator' and 'creature'. You are using the argument of exnihilo a argument that has fallen out of favor among scholars since the middle ages. You create a argument that just doesn't ring true to me. The Jew sounds like a Greek.
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The dialogue I could follow and understand the difference between the two. Pass that I got if you can't explain something about G-d we still believe in him and obey his word. I'm glad you brought up it's ok to try to understand and comprehend on a deeper level. I take it that last line means if I don't understand something and someone ask me and I say "I don't know" that's ok!
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It's just too primitive an explanation.
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brilliant. i agree completely. Jews are an eternal identity one not bound to the "empire" of the day. trying to compromise the Torah to modern values or Greek values back in the day etc etc is ludicrous. The jewish people are a separate nation, a nation that passes through history and does not assimilate or compromise its values based on the flavour of the times.
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Forgetting the Jew/Greek issue, there is a MORE important issue NO ONE is discussing. That is, G-d's MIRACLE in keeping the oil burning so work can continue in the temple. I really prefer not to dwell on past hurts because I don't want to see myself as a perpetual victim, and don't want to see Jewish people as perpetual victims. Yes, bad things happened. But, MIRACLES also happened. Where is the faith? Where is the thankfulness and gratefulness to G-d for keeping us going DESPITE the perpetrators harming us as a nation all these years? How healthy is it to see ourselves as being hated by all people in general? I prefer to let the past be in the past and just keep one eye out for signs if they come up again. The Jews and Greeks can't get along because WE KEEP the separation going and we KEEP the feelings of vengeance and sadness going. Not only do we keep reminding us of how badly others hate us, we teach it to our kids and they automatically hate the "others".
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too bad that your GOD (why G-D?) is invisible, so you cannot see Her (why Him?), so in reality is not a theory (Theon oro = see God).
Apart from Greek jokes (I'm Greek, guilty as charged), why start our syllogism with givens that don't exist.
If everything "plays" in your Cosmos, then start from the premise, that Greeks and Jews are friends, for they are.
Do you want the really funny part? In the Hellenic army I gave an oath of protecting the constitution of Greece. Our constitution is in the name of Holly Trinity, which is defined in the bible, which also mentions that the Jews are the chosen people of GOD.
Hence, I'm under oath obliged to back you up. Hence, Greeks are not your enemy. You're strange, we're strange, but, hey, do you see anything around you THAT IS NOT STRANGE?
Besides, "stranger" is the "xenos", and Greeks by definition are not enemies of "xeni", for we are "philoxeni" and Zeus was also called Xenios, i.e. he who PROTECTS THE STRANGERS.
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I totally LOVE your blog! I wish ALL JEWS could read it, in fact. Another word which has Xenos in it is xenophobia. FEAR of strangers. I think I have "xenophilia", which is the LOVE of strangers. In fact, in my world, which I have created for myself, ALL PEOPLE are my friends until they prove otherwise. Geode, it is difficult for many people to accept us, because we usually "don't fit in" to other cultures. We don't often eat the same food, and in some parts of Judaism, like Chassidim and Orthodox, they wear different types of clothing. Also, our holidays are on different days than Christian holidays, and we usually don't partake of the festivities on Christmas and Easter. I am so happy you like Jewish people. Have you ever tried bagels, lox and cream cheese? Delicious. If there is a Jewish restaurant there, please go and report back what you think of the food. I am happy you are our friend!!! Welcome!!!
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There's something we share in common, but name it otherwise.
You seek ascention of your Jewish Neshama.
I seek the Ellysium for my Hellenic Psyche.
How similar is that, I cannot express it with logos, ergo, noesis (speach/reason, work or intellect) and that's why I'll have you listen to the Cretan Archangel Nikos Xylouris chant a psalm of Yiannis Ritsos.
youtube -> BQBD8C2s8nU
The lyrics are these:
We smile inwards. This smile, we hide it now. Illegal smile, like illegal became the sun, illegal the truth as well. We hide the smile, as we hide in our pocket the photograph of our beloved, as we hide the idea of freedom, between the two leaves of our heart. All here we have one sky and the same smile. Tomorrow they might kill us, but this smile and this sky, they cannot take it from us.
Have your elders listen to it and then ask what is the difference between their neshama and my psyche, between their hatikva and my freedom.
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Our logic seeks cause and effect correlations to give evidence that forces exist, despite being invisible. There are many believe in with perfect faith: electricity, magnetism, gravity, and others.
Jewish history offers us this cause and effect correlation that gives evidence to G-d's existence. There is no nation with our history and no explanation for our survival. Like the cosmos, it could be viewed as a freak accident of chaos, but thankfully, we have tradition, from The Source, that tells us otherwise.
Regarding the myth of Zeus...he was a protector of strangers who murdered his father to become chief god...not very Christian of him....
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I tend to lean towards the opinion that our consciousness is what influences time. Time is after all only in this dimension and was created. Is it not possible that after the fall of Adam and Hava that physicality aged? I believe the Torah is true, I believe we people just have to figure out what it all means. It's our understanding and wisdom that needs to grow.
Secondly please stop saying that all people except Jews are good and have ethics. It is simply not true. There are many wonderful people in the world. There is truth and wisdom to be found everywhere. Mankind is evolving in consciousness and the world today is much improved in many aspects from even just 10 years ago. We are more environmentally conscious , loads of people from all walks of life do volunteer work, etc etc.
I see life as a giant jigsaw puzzle and we are all ( jews and non jews) working to put the puzzle back together.
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Of who has the best poetry. The question of why we can't get along is a loaded question. It ASSUMES we can not. You and I are trying to explain we CAN get along. Others may say that the Jews are special because G-d made them to survive calamities. I think all people who believe that there is G-d inside them and who survive difficult times are special. We can't single ourselves out because we survived. Look who else survived over all these years? Cannibals. They still exist. People who hate still exist. I think that when a culture "still exists" throughout calamities AND CONTRIBUTES to society and the world many positive enlightenments and discoveries, they are SUPER special. It makes us feel good to think that G-d has chosen us to help heal the world. It is called "Tikkun Olam", and our social consciousness is doing G-d's work on this planet. I do believe we CAN get along, we two. I appreciate the contributions the Greeks have made, also. Oh, and Zeus? Not Christian.
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Several ancestries of real kings go back to the Greek gods. Plato wrote about this in Alcibiades. I tend to believe that the gods were real flesh and blood tribes. For example, Zeus, represents the Zerahites (the rulers, legislators, nobles, judges, kings, Presidents of the world that are almost all genetically related), a clan of Judah, the ruling house. Possibly, President Barrack Obama is a descendant of the royal house of Thebes, an African Zerahite. Hades, Zeus' brother, represents the Shelahites, another clan of Judah (the Ashkenazi Jews) that influence the world financially. Here Poseidon, the third of Zeus' brothers is the Perezites, whose ancestor is Pharez. Because Poseidon and the Sephardic Jews are linkable by myth, I suggest that the Sephardic Jews are Perezites.
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(for it is recognised as an official religion and calling one's belief system a "myth" would be offensive as in saying according to jewish mythology) the premise that Zeus murdered his father is false.
It is also irrelevant to the discussion. The argument:
A says B
A is bad,
hence B is wrong
is a logical fallacy
Also Olympicism is not indeed very Christian.
Actually it is not at all, for it predates it.
The mentioning of the poem was not candidancy for a poetic contest, but an attempt to highlight similarities in the idiosynchrasy of jews and greeks. Apparently you liked it too much, for psychology suggests that one does not perceive something of lesser quality as competitive.
What about fallen heroes? Contribute but not survive.
Relevant to protecting the strangers, this was a Greek custom, ruled by sacred laws of both olympic and christian eras, hence the chances of being victimised by a greek on the grounds of being foreign was ethically indecent and highly penalised always.
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Theosophist Helena Blavatsky believed Olympus was actually Atlantis, phonetically similar. And, that place was where the ancient Hebrew kings dwelled after Noah’s ark landed. I date Noah’s story to tens of thousands of years ago, a time when modern geneticists say the world was repopulated by a few individuals. The Noah flood story was thus caused by the melting of the ice after the ice age. Zeus the Olympiad was probably Zerah son of Judah (Genesis), where his father was Saturnus (Saturn) of Krit (Crete) otherwise called Jacob (Genesis), as much of the story matches, as Platonists believed. Here Darda, son of Zerah, son of Judah [Chronicles] is Dardanus, founder of the Royal House of Troy [Iliad], who appears in so many royal genealogies that it suggests that the scepter was never removed. Some myth interpreters confuse Zeus (Zerah son of Judah) and Jupiter (Judah). If this interests you, then look up Armstrong, and British Israelism, (better termed European Israelism.
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Get along. Particularly, if we see each other as individuals, because there are nice and mean people in EVERY nation, culture and religion. Right? The discussion of Greek religion vs Judaism is interesting, by the way. Since we can't go back and talk to the "heros" or gods mentioned, there will never be a definitive link. We can only make supposition. I think your suppositions are extremely fun to read! I like them. I asked my younger son, the HISTORY specialist, about the links, and his answer is "Who knows? Could be, because we are ALL linked if you go back far enough." So, the Jews and Greeks could be related from way back when. Do brothers fight? Of course, just look at Ishmael's and Isaac's descendants in the Middle East. There were half-brothers, you know.
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according to Olympic religion, the world was destroyed by a Cataclysm.
Zeus destroyed the bronze age human kind and Prometheus informed Deucalion of the imminent catastrophe, so he build a boat to save himself and numerous animals.
On this boat Deucalion and his wife Pyhrra were the only survivors, who re-inhabited the planet with humans by throwing stones behind their backs.
One of these rocks gave birth to Hellenas, who is the the patriarch of all Hellenes, i.e. Greeks.
According to Aurelius Augustinus, Deucalion was contemporary of Moses.
According to me, I'd expect to be another 11 patriarchs for another 11 tribes.
I know seven, but one of them is particularly interesting: Amphiction, which in Greek is the same with the word for "league of tribal ancient cities", what one would call "confederation of independent states".
Another interesting part is that before releasing the animals, Deucalion let a pigeon fly, which returned with an olive branch. The symbol of peace.
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HIghly interesting analogies and similarities. So, then, how DO the Jews and Greeks get along in Athens, Greece?
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Why can't the Jews and the Jews get along? Different sects reject other sects? Not cool at all! Can one sect of Judaism speak for ALL people in Judaism?
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The idea was that a scholarly dissertation is why the Jews and Greeks didn't get along. Along with Jewish scholars studying and arguing the text of the Torah to make it make sense in given situations based on a pre-conceived belief, habit or tradition already being done in a particular Jewish community, this method is why the wars continue between the "enemy" nations. The nations mentioned BOTH use scholarly dissertations to converse instead of rational discussion. The arguments get heated, with neither side bending, or one side bending and the other side lying to end the discussion. In fact, this Chabad.Org blog site is one example of a positive Pilpul. It is expected that no definitive or "correct" answer will ever supercede what the Rabbi says, but will allow differences of opinion to take place. It is what has made us uniquely Jewish~ this ability to discuss with disagreement and input from many different points of view. Peace talks won't work unless our president understands scholarly dissertations.
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I would like to express my dissatisfaction.
From what I can understand, even today many people cannot get the grasp of hellenism. In our culture faith is not something necessarily bad. That can be proven by the logical assumption that a scientist has to first believe in the hypothesis he sets and he has to believe that the experiment conducted will give sufficient data in order to obtain knowledge and truth.
However in hellenism faith can also be viewed potentially equally destructive as creative, when faith and belief is based on hypotheses that cannot be tested and thus proven to be valid or good. I believe that hellenists just did not see any point in preserving a value system of doing things or believing without a a productive reason.
I find it highly offensive that Hellas translates into quicksand, since all of your great thinkers and historical philosophers used hellenic-found knowledge and a hellenistic approach towards learning universal truths.
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I'd also like to add that hellenists probably did not like the religious culture of the jewish community, because their own system of ethics, values and beliefs was structured upon what we call "Areti", while the jews believed that g-d just does as he pleases without having a certain aim that we can understand/support/abide by/benefit from. Also you would find it interesting to know that we did not worship statues, we simply worshipped art; and that our "gods" semi-gods, nymphs and muses were actual people of historical, scientific and progressive importance and we kept their vision and values alive by loving them and respecting them as people with a strong connection to what we call Divine Knowledge, a.k.a Human Creativity. Yet we never tried to hide their human/flawed nature. We simply did not like Judaism because adopting such an assymetrical way of thinking would not help science to progress. Come to think of it, we were not far off, when you see how jewish-bred religions such as Christianity and Islam, which bear uncanny resemblence to Judaism have done their best to keep science from progressing (Christianity in Europe, Islam in the Middle East).
I must confess though, that from all these like-minded cultures yours, Jewish people, is the most respected, at least from us Hellines. You might have totally different views about the universal truths we believe in, yet you are the only culture in your geographic area that has strong enough roots and a self preserving dynamic that is utterly respectable and self-sufficient. We despise christianity for their plagiarism of aristotle's and plato's works and speeches in their bibles and the violence that Islam promotes. And we two peoples are similar in one of the most important aspects of culture : We consider someone to be of our own when we find the same qualities in the structure of logic and philosophy, and not just by their blood.
Greetings from Hellas!
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As a thinker on modernism vs postmodernism, you've provided me with an historical backdrop to the philosophical (and ultimately cultural) conflict of Modernism vs Postmodernism. I always wondered why so many Jews were the fathers (and mothers) of so many postmodern intellectual movements since the late 1800's. I now have some sort of template; Artistotelian vs 'Talmudic' (I'm not sure what to call the Ancient Jewish categorical worldview) thinking! Enlightening and entertaining essay, thanks!
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The Jews and greeks got along just fine for many years before Channukah happened. The problem was assimilated hellenistic Jews who absorbed hellenism and then tried to force it on their religious brethren. Without that, Channukah would probably have never happened.
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You mentioned that "Islam tried to keep science from progressing". This is simply not true. Islam promoted literacy, so that even the poorest of society were able to read. On top of that, Cordoban Spain is a great example of how Jews enriched a foreign, Muslim culture which in fact drew much of its scientific background from Ancient Greek texts.
The simple answer to why the Seleucid Empire subjugated the Jews was because they were different as the author eloquently says - ideologically, culturally, even physically (Hellenistic Culture gave prominence to the foreskin...). They were perceived as barbarian outsiders to an extent.
But now we all realize that forcing culture on to others (as both the Greeks and Maccabees did [yes, they did]) is barbaric itself. Kicking people off their land or stealing it is abhorrent, regardless of whom is perceived to be at fault. The Jewish people should now see the Hanukkah story through modern eyes: what's happening in Israel now is awfully similar.
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Jealousy. Fear. Lack of communication. Misunderstandings. Greed. Money. Power. Sex. The "us/them" philosophy. Believing one's own nation has the right to subjugate another based on their god telling them they are special. It happens all the time. This is what gives impetus to modern soap operas on television, and moves nations to go to war against other nations.
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In trying to have a positive opinion of Jews I always smack into that wall. According to tradition, Jews are exclusive by nature. I ask myself: How can I like being excluded, especially when I don't appreciate what historically respected Jews say about gentiles? Why should I step on the other side of the fence, when I don't like the way the Torah says Jews can treat me now? What am I left to say, but being Jewish is merely a club for people with special mothers, and my mom doesn't happen to be special in that way. It's not a good feeling, this feeling of love that quickly turns to hate if I perceive that Jews are treating me differently because I am not a Jew.
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Jews love all peoples-Jews and no JewsJust that Jews have particular ways that we need,want and have to live.
It has been a misunderstanding all through the centuries about this matter mostly because the Church( and now Muslims)has distorted the vision of Peoples about us.
Such vision must be corrected in the same way that Jews have to correct our own mistakes.
Everybody must have their opportunities to cure and fix their own mistakes before being smashed by blind hate.
Mature understanding is the key,I think.
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" what historically respected Jews say about gentiles". I'm Jewish. I'm respected. I don't say much about gentiles because I don't name call. What have you heard?
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Let's not get into that because I don't feel anything positive can come out of it. When I study Judaism, and I do frequently, I disregard some of the things rabbis say and pretend that I am a Jew. So, when I study I try to focus on the positive instead of the negative. However, I am with Einstein when he said, “Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.” And, even further, people like Richard Dawkins criticize speciesism, and how we often weep over human suffering, but ignore animal suffering. I think that there are many nations in the world implies both a separateness and a togetherness. The Torah justifies my view too by giving mankind a steward’s role. Thus, as stewards, we are all on this world to care for each other. Thus, when it comes to something bigoted, such as refusing to heal a gentile patient because Maimonides said so, I believe that he was mistaken.
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I’m not sure if you were implying an insult by using the word heard instead of listened. One does not have to understand to hear. However, if one has listened, it implies understanding. By using heard instead of listen, is it that you think I would not listen or rather that are you implying that goys don’t listen? That is, are you implying that we goys are not capable of listening?
The other possibility: I do not heard, but I won’t call you rude (just yet?) for using that word because I haven’t pleaded for Jews to give me a ritual bath, instead of hopping in the shower, and a pin prick, just so I can have no tribal inheritance among your people. However, I do appreciate the Laws of Mikvah (Thanks for sharing!) for the purpose of constructing a rainwater bath (maybe for myself). If I ever build one someday, then I’d let you take a dip though I admit I have doubt that you would respect it as one made by your own people.
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I re-read my comments, and don't know to what you are referring. "Heard/listened", what is this all about? What are you actually saying? Please give a reference and explain. I didn't read rudeness in any of my postings. In fact, Craig, I am not Orthodox, and just sometimes, I go to Chabad or to a Reform temple. I am not strictly Torah observant, so I don't know what you're saying. I think that some of your comments about Jewish people are insulting to them. By the way, if I were to read these old sayings from the "sages" and take all of the Torah literally, I would go crazy. Many of the sayings are anathema to a modern thinking. Do we do animal sacrifice today? No. Do we have multiple marriages? No. Do we go into war deliberately intending to kill ALL men, women, children and animals of a nation? No. I have a feeling someone has HURT your feelings, and you are blaming ALL of Judaism on this person. If a Rabbi has hurt you, I am sorry about that. But, he's only ONE person.
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If you know (or believe) that much of Torah comes from myth, why you want to study it with an Orthodox or Lubavitch rabbi. What is your main motive? If it is to argue with them, they will appear to be hurting your feelings, because they will not change just because you say so. If it is to truly learn what they believe, then shut your mouth when you disagree, or form your statements as QUESTIONS. That way, you won't feel slighted. If you WANT to be Jewish, then there are two ways to do it. Learn from the Rabbi and convert, or accept that you can be Jewish in your heart and go to places like Reform temples where you will be more accepted socially. If you have read my other blogs on many of these sites, you will find I believe MORE PEOPLE are Jewish than not, based on their NOT KNOWING their ancestry. It may be that you are feeling a pull in your soul which is what some call "genetic memory" but which can't be proven. Look up "Noahide" which is a righteous gentile.
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Let us enumerate some of their differences. They do not have the same G-d because the Greeks have gods. They do not share the same understanding about the nature of all reality because the Greeks assume that reality is what it is. They do not share the same ethical ground because the Greeks' ethics is based on reason alone. And the one greatest difference that sets them entirely apart is that the Greeks have no understanding of eternity. Lest we forget, both of them are made in the image of G-d... "in" the image of G-d and not "on" the image of a god. Baruch HaShem from a Noachide.
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I think it's probably a miracle that this article is still being commented on, 6 years later. It's always personally enlightening to comment and reflect on a good article.
That said, I'd like to have the chance to make my point in response mainly to the commenters above. While people have pontificated over which religion is best and who's 'right' or 'wrong', the fact is no one system of thought or religion is right (or wrong). To the Ancient Greeks, the Jews were crazy and vice versa, hence a war. Hence, a comment war above. Hence, ongoing religious war today.
The take-away is to believe what you actually believe, whether it's Judaism, Athiesm, Agnosticism, Islam, etc., make religion your personal experience. You don't need to go telling people what's right and wrong, because there is no right or wrong.
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The Hebrew language and Greek language are different, in that the Hebrew words are those of action and the Greek words are of literal meaning. So, we speak and listen to each other with different meanings to words. Also, the connotation of Hebrew is Eastern thought. The concept of Greek is Western thought. Interesting, that one reason we don't get along is that we can't talk and listen with the same understanding of meanings. Examples given were of what is a pencil and what is a knee. A pencil, to a Greek, is an object about 6 inches long. A pencil, in Hebrew, is something with which I write. A knee to a Greek is the bony part of the leg (the actual thing), and to a Hebrew it is the part of the leg which bends (action). I thought this was fascinating information, and had nothing to do with how many gods each one believed in. It only had to do with communication. The other thing I learned was the Greeks "got rid of" the Hebrews? Is that true?
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Karen, you're taking it too literally. My understanding is that it is a metaphor for the Ancient Greeks' apparent love of science and observation of nature, as compared with the Hebrews' concern for things of a higher meaning (the material [measurements for example] v.s. the immaterial [actions]).
The Greeks perceived nature, the material, as law (hence gods of fire, water, earth), and the Hebrews...well, you probably know the rest. And that's why they didn't get along, at least in my understanding of the article.
Just to restate my point before, though, no one can truly say that one belief is any more correct than another; we're all just trying to find meaning here. The gods of Ancient Greece, and their historical predecessors and ancestors, served their purpose for many great civilizations, and to mock them as childish and irrelevant is to be ignorant of the history of Monotheism...
Religions and societies are built to disagree with each other, but people aren't.
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I might take an original copy of Torah literally. Keep in mind, literally here must be defined within the concept of Hebrew.
A good instance of this is in the Hebrew Bible regarding translation of the word, “Yom,” translated as “day” in English versions of Genesis, but also translated as “age” in an English version of a Psalm in Tanakh. In English, I happen to be a Day Age Theorist where yom is taken to mean an age from the perspective of humanity. Further examination of the Hebrew in the creation story supports that there is no problem in reconciliation of most widely accepted science and belief in the Day Age Theory, provided that the Hebrew is taken literally within the context of Hebrew.
Also, I take the phrase, “And these words,” of Deuteronomy to be inclusive of all written and spoken words outside of Torah, though they must be put into context. Thus, it is such that I would consider The Iliad (for example) to be Haggadah (legend).
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I never knew this about the word YOM being "age" instead of "day". This knowledge brings a whole, new perspective to how I view the Bible. I saw it as being ALL mythology, but now I see that with the correct translation of the words, it CAN be reconciled with science. Again, however, this brings the communication issue to the forefront of our discussion here. With incorrect translations, how can anyone communicate? I still want to know if it is true the Greeks did decimate the Jewish people who lived among them. If so, that can be a GREAT reason we still may not get along today. Also, I want to know if all the Hebrew were killed then, why were they killed? What was the Grecian reason for this? I know the Nazis wanted a "pure" race, but what was the designated reason behind the Greek holocaust (if that did happen)? Does anyone know this?
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Speak Hebrew? Wow. I tried to learn, but it was way too difficult for me, and the Rabbi went too quickly with the group for me to follow. You must be so smart! I heard that in the Song of Solomon, there is a phrase, "My beloved is dark BUT lovely", and that in Hebrew there is no such conjunction, so it could have been dark AND lovely. How do we go about knowing the actual meaning? Dark BUT lovely implies dark people are usually UGLY or unlovable. Dark AND lovely signifies nothing but the two adjectives.
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I am getting annoyed with all this attribution of these philosophical ideas to the Greeks. Though I am unaware of where a lot of it came from, such as modal music theory or the ideas described in Plato’s Republic, I am not sure that the mission of the Greeks was to be engineering innovators, so much as they were engineering reporters. For example, if we want to study trigonometry we might look to Pythagoras. However, if we are to look at the earliest examples of it that I know of, we should study the Egyptian pyramids.
True there are some similarities and differences between Greek and Hebrew, but a word is a word. Use it as a tool. Take it for what it is. Not everything needs to be described by action (ex. a pyramid), and I guess few (including myself) would say trig is not important.
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Craig - well said.
Saying that all Greeks wanted to be scientists and all Jews religious mystics based on spurious linguistic 'evidence' is ridiculous. And yes, the Greeks built upon previous ideas. But Greco-Roman science is basically what the Western World has been built on, with much help provided from Muslim thinkers. At the very least, the Ancient Greeks had a culture of discovery, innovation, and preservation (a national stereotype if you will) and they deserve their recognition, as do the Jews for their unending contributions to the world.
Also, it bugs me when people get caught up over a word's meaning - language isn't perfect and the author's intent isn't always clear. But there is always a bigger picture to pay attention to. But, to each his own.
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I thought it was fun not take word definitions seriously until I got a taste of my own medicine. If you think you are going to be able to go through life never correcting anyone on a word definition, or to never to be corrected, that seems kind of naive. It is even more naive to think that being loosey-goosey on word definitions will save you any trouble if it interests you to communicate with people other than yourself. However, thanks for the compliment earlier:)
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The Jews and Greeks can't get along, then there must be a reason. I don't hold to that assumption that they don't get along; however, I'm trying to answer the question as it is presented. The question ASSUMES we don't get along. So, I am saying if ANYONE doesn't get along, it is sometimes because of MISCOMMUNICATION and misunderstandings. Communication is both is spoken and received listening. That's all I'm saying. It's an answer to the question without giving credence to the question itself as it is worded. In looking up the issue on a search engine, I did find that the terms are METAPHORS. Greeks for western thought and Jews for eastern thinking. For some reason, many people view our thought patterns as being divergent. In fact, when I was a teacher, one of our in-services was in how to explain LITERATURE from the two different thought patterns. Jewish and eastern literature follows a circular pattern. Greek and western is linear.
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This is one of my pet peeves with the educational system today. To often teachers ask students to input a number in a formula to get an answer, and that answer is correct. There is no thought to it, and not only that, but it is also exceedingly boring. However, if you take the measurements of the angles of the Egyptian pyramids (for example), they aren't perfect. They are estimated.
I have done a share of carpentry too. In my opinion, the ideas of straight, level and plumb (etc) should only be taken as loose concepts, where what truly matters is the big picture, such as does it look natural, and/or does it have a homey feel to it. The touch one has or the mood one has when placing a board is more important than having the exact measurements. The same is true with a lot of things, such as taking pictures.
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i don't think what you say about the greek language is true.Actually it's the opposite.I will give you one example among millions.
The word "agalma" (=statue) didn't just mean a still shape since it comes from the word "ἀγάλλομαι" which means i feel happy.So the statues were something that brought happiness to those who saw them (action)
When you use english words it isn't clear.
Anyway i think they couldn't get along because they were very different. The Hebrews lived for their God,they didn't eat meat, didn't accept nudity (greek athletes fought naked), etc. They acted based on the laws of God. On the other hand greeks were more "logical", like, they believed that "if everything is created from nothing, then nothing is actually everything". Maybe they couldn't accept that they had been spending the entire lives to discover laws while there was a being that could break them.Though i think that if the Greeks and Hebrews had united, they would have gained much.
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The whole reason of clash, was simple because both cultures hold different values.To correct somebody who make the comment that Jew "dont eat meat" is not correct. Jews don't eat pork or shelfish, but eat what is consider proper to eat, cow, sheep, etc. Regarding the Macabees, history show that the Greek expansion fathered by Alexander, was not innocent like some people here assume.Great conquest of nations included the imposition of Greek gods over others.The Jewish uprising was the natural consecuence.After all, humans always act in base to their beliefs, whatever beliefs hold. Judaism never has been imposed over others, the Jewish people expect reciprocity from the rest of the world." The respect to the rights of others, is the peace" famous words by Mexican hero, Benito Juarez.
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Because one represents light and the other the dark, the only time the meet but still are not one and will never be one, is the twilight time...
One worships the human nature and spirit and the other the human greed and gold.
END.
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Also, aren't your sayings hasty generalizations and discriminatory?
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When the House of David ruled, c. 1,000 BCE – 0 CE, this is Jacob’s blessing manifest upon the Perezites. The Greek and Persian Empires are the Zerahites from 1,000 BCE to 0 CE. This is period is Jacob’s blessing manifest upon the Zerahites. My thought is that the reason the Zerahites were associated with idol worship, such as in the Greek and Persian Empire is that Edom is associable with idol worship. Thus, Zerah and Zerahites are counted both as Edom (son of Reuel) and Judah (son of Judah). Furthermore, the reign of the Zerahites continued unbroken while Edom was in power from 0 CE to 2000 CE, the period of Esau’s blessing, where Jacob's yoke on Edom's neck is broken, and Edom said, "I will kill my brother Jacob."
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FYI:
There is (still) an ancient little city in Cyprus named Soly or Soli. Its most famous ruler (king) was Hiero (in Hellenic means Holy) who, before his passing, visited the shores of present Israel. There, he created another city of Soly dedicated to his deities but the city's occupants renamed it after him...Hierosoly. This is actually the name of today's Jerusalem or Yierusalim which means in Hellenic Holy City of Soly.
Hebrews portray this city as the city of David but unfortunately there is no trace of David being a great king or even a king in any of the Hellenic, Egyptian of other scripts of that era.
In addition, there is still a Hebrew population in present day Soly in Cyprus disproportionate to other cities in the island.
Maybe you should search and objectively state facts as they come to light...
Maybe Hellenes and Hebrews ARE directly related...
Maybe Hebrews do reason today...
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If my research is correct, then the H1 haplotype is "Semitic." Jews are descended from the the Hamites according to the prophets. Thus, very few Jews are H1. This is not to say that Jews are not Semites, but rather that Jews descend from converts. H1 is thus the the marker for Edomite and/or Ishmaelite DNA. For example, Azariah (son of Ethan, son of Zerah) is said to be a patriarch of the Scots via the Milesian Jews. While Darda (son of Zerah) is said to be a patriarch of the Vikings before they left Rome. Genetics tells us that both the Vikings and the Scots have their origins in the Middle East, and additionally Middle Eastern rune stones are sometimes found where the vikings resided. The evidence indicates that both of these groups are H1.
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A thousand apologies, I meant to say haplotype I is Edom, not haplotype H. Though I need to do more research, haplotype H is likely the Ishmaelites, whom like Edom are also known for idolatry. Thus, the area where most whom have haplotype H reside is primarily Hindu, which is another polytheistic religion. Haplotype I is Edom.
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Huh? Who says we don't get along? What does that phrase even MEAN? How many Jews even get along with other Jews?
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Hi,
Thank you - I enjoyed this.
Where "Promethean bed" is cited, I believe "Procrustean bed" would have fit better (no pun intended), given the context.
Besides, the fable of Prometheus did not have a bed in it, and the fable of Procrustes did. Look it up, it's the original 'one size fits all' story.
Just a thought.
Thanks again.
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Rabbi Freeman, you did it again. This is such a magnificent explanation of our Creator. And for the difference between Idolatry and the Monoteistic belief, it is amazing the way you answered such a question. You definitely have a special gift from the Giver of Everything this world contains. Thank you so much for your teachings. I never could have been able to explain to anyone such truth of our faith.
May Hashem, Blessed be He, keep on blessing you with wisdom.
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Although Hanucha places the Jews and Greeks in opposite sides, history suggests it was a little bit different. Greek was the spoken language, not Hebrew nor Aramiac and the culture pattern of more than half of the Jews was Greek. So the battle was not only against certain Greek armies but it was also carried out by force within the ranks of the Jewish population. Much of their political views were in support the Greeks and their ways and to give up on the Jewish ones which they thought to be old fashioned and inferior. The Macabees had not only to defeat the Greek armies but to reconvert the Jews and rededicate the temple!
The reconversion part is still a problem even today!
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@David, above. Really you are simplifying, reducing, and even denying the most profound syncretic and cultural transfers we Jews ever experienced. You also wrong on the basic facts.
With all respect to the Rabbi, and to you, what is portrayed here as the Greek worldview says nothing about the ancient Greeks, because it is wholly inaccurate. But it does speak to prejudices some of us have about them and other cultures. The Rabbi woudl fail a classics 101 course.
The fact is Judaism today is something quite Greek. It was permanantly changed by contact with the Greeks and by our adoption of myriad small and large Greek views.
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Specifics in how we adopted Greek views. Sounds interesting.
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The Greeks prohibited the observance of Shabbat, Brit Mila (circumcision), and Kiddush Hachodesh court approved moon calendar.
They also prohibited the study and dissemination of Torah Sheba'al Peh (Oral Torah) while elevating the Torah Shebichtav (Written Torah) by translating it into Greek.
So, Orthodox Jews had a problem. Many of the Jewish people then were leaving Orthodoxy to join Greek thought patterns. Some of the oral laws made by the Rebbes were not being followed.
It was not ALL Jews who couldn't get along with the Greeks. It was the ones who believed in the extended Torah. The disputes became bitter.
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Judaism today is NOT something quite Greek,because if it would,it would not be Judaism.
It is more accurate to say that many Jews have adopted a culture that is no theirs and have let Judaism aside.
Today´s general culture *is*a Greek culture in the sense that todays culture is Hedonistic,what means that today people take more care of their physical aspects than their spiritual aspects.
Today a big TV;a marketed "culture"sold by media;a juicy beef in a fashioned restaurant;a travel to Paris and so on are more important than the culture of the soul, that is virtually inexistent nowadays,
wouldn´t it be for Chabad org and other smaller movements,who eventually profit the "physical" language of the current " Greek" culture but keep the roots of the Judaism inside that form.
It can be a "Greek form" but it is Judaism inside and not the opposite.
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I don’t like that this commentary has permitted the portrayal of Greeks as a culture made up of people whom are all alike. Ex. “The Greeks were polytheists.” – Beverly Kurtin If one has seen one Greek, one has not seen them all. Ex. Aristotle. Generalization of nations as people that are all one way or another fuels the fires of hatred. That is not to say that there are not Greeks or that there are not Jews. It is that not that all Greeks are the nation Javan (though many were). Thus, not all Greeks have characteristics associable with the word Javan. As I have pointed out, some Greeks, specifically the rulers, were in fact Semites that descended from Edom, and that is the most likely source of polytheistic tendencies. Just like the Jews, Greeks are living, breathing people, many of whom evolve to have an identity of their own (not an identity reducible to nationalistic groupings aside from those in Torah).
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I am of Greek parents raised in the USA. I think this is a great discussion, and even learned some things about my ancestral heritage that I had not heard before.
If I may add, that Judaism has influenced people today, just as much as Hellenistic thought has. We can get along, and should try more, being that we are neighbors for such a long time. I think the Jewish people of the community in Greece would be an excellent source of insight into the co existence of these very different religions. why ? Well, even today we say we are Christians, but the past philosophies and customs of ancient Greece still are evident in the culture today. Excellent topic . Thanks again :)
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Thank you and G-d bless you for your kindness.
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