By Tzvi Freeman
 | They could have learned so much from each other! Instead, the extremists hit the battlefield
29 Comments Posted
Great article. However, I disagree with the statement that "...attempting to resolve conflicts between evolutionary doctrines and Torah makes less sense than marrying a donkey to an ox". Maybe evolution is just one more of the "laws of nature...[that exist]... Because G-d generally chooses to work in consistent ways".
Sure, evolution is G-dless, but so are the theories of gravity, relativity, quantum physics, and chemical bonding. All those are the consistent laws that G-d decided to make operate apparently independent of Him, so why can't evolution be one more?
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and when there seems to be no reason or possiblity of understanding, right there is an opportunity for kindness and compassion. and maybe some "light" humor.
and, the moment to breathe and be thankful that we can simply be, breathe, and it's ok not to know.
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Mr. Freeman has already touched upon the answer to your question, Michael, in the example/dialogue given here between the Greek and the Jew, and the question of many gods vs. the one G-d. The Jew rebukes the Greek by telling him that there is only One G-d rather then many: 'many gods' can be independent of each other, for if they weren't they would be united into one. By contrast, nothing is independent of a G-d that is One.
Michael, I presume that you don't believe as the Romans once did that there is/was a separate god of wine named Bacchus, though wine may appear to you as an independent entity? Do you believe that there are 'many gods' for gravity, relativity, physics, and (of course) evolution, independent of each other?
You can invoke free will and step on the clutch and disengage the gears, thus making them appear to be independent of the car, but they still are not. The Jews transcended the Greeks, and Einstein transcended mechanics. Nothing escapes the clutches of He, The One
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I think I have somewhat of a response for your consternation you describe in your article. As I understand the subject matter, the Maccabeans cleansed the Temple but soon afterwards, the first Maccabean leader's descendents started fighting each other for control of the throne. As their fighting heated up, they turned into despotic rulers. these were not Greeks, but Jews, who were influenced by Greek lifestyle, and I believe, as the Torah describes, that this aspect of Jewish history is the reason anything bad ever happens to the Jews - because they mixed their lifestyles into the surrounding cultures' and they became alienated from God's only revealed truth.
So perhaps the Greeks and the Jews did not really have anything against each other, but as some Jews became seduced by Greek lifestlye, the lines between Jewish and Greek became blurred, a situation that was not rectified until 1948. Shalom
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Everything Rabbi Tzvi touches - or writes on - turns to gold. I loved this article. Chag Sameach, Rabbi Tzvi!
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"You're right about one thing: The whole Chanukah story was completely out of character for Ancient Greece. I don't believe there was any other culture they ever oppressed or forbade."
I'm sorry to correct you but the Greek empire was quite oppressive throughout its domain. For more clarification on this topic, and for an actual account of the subject when it occured, read Thucydides' "On Justice, Power, and Human Nature."
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Tzion is spelled Tsade-yud-vav-nun sofit.
Yaven is spelled yud-vav-nun sofit.
The difference between Jew and Greek is the letter tsade, which stands for righteousness. The difference is that Jews do this or that for the sake of righteousness, and Greeks do this or that for their own sense of right (or wrong)... the diff is HaShem. simple....
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That argument between the Greek and the Jew is similar to modern day arguments. The "reason only" person can't get past the "Gd said so, so I do it" of a religious person. They see it as foolish superstition.
A workable reply is, "the part of creation I do understand, and the part of the rules of living I accept, they reflect a well thought out intelligent design. There is enough perfection in what I do understand that I will put some faith in the part I don't yet understand. Like when a mathematician derives some new law of nature with math, but has not yet observed it".
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The Greek/Western mind and language is polar opposite to the Hebrew. The Greek is linear, static and concrete. The Hebrew is circular, motion and mystical. We think and speak in an english western language a descendant of Greek thought, and have tried to translate the Hebrew into Greek and lost concepts that can not be translated. Reason and logic does not go well with a burning bush, or parting seas. The greeks were not as tolerant as they write thier history to imply. The peoples they conquered did not see them as liberators.
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Speaking of the Greeks, let's take it from the viewpoints of Plato and Socrates, and the problem of Athenian democracy:
Any of you at all familiar with Plato's "Republic"?
It's main theme: The problems with, and breakdown of, the world's first attempt at what was basically a secular liberal democracy.
The Athenians attempted a true democracy, but instead chaos prevailed: If secular rationalism is the top form, and everyone is always screaming for equal say all the time, and there is no G-d above it all????.
And thus, like a tower of babble, it was collapsing.
Plato suggested a 'representative alternative' to democracy; a republic; with the introduction of a G-d above all to promote a certain foundational order; but he never suggested a reform of the idolatry that went along with the myths of the Greek religion and it's corrupting influence.
It took the Jews, and the giving of Torah, to bring such a reform to the world.
And todah rabbah for that.
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Numenius the Pythagorian commented on The Republic, "What more is Plato than Moses speaking Attic Greek?"
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What once may have kept the Jews and Greeks from getting along is now a major point of division for many others.
In your outreach ministry for Chabad I'm sure you have encountered many Jews yourself, all too many of whom consider themselves to be 'secular liberal' more so then bound to Torah.
There are many nowadays who seem to think that being secular liberal is the 'new' and 'progressive' alternative/replacement for G-d and Torah.
The truth is though that the problems of liberal democracy, and it's instances of failure, are actually older then the giving of written Torah and it's formal acceptance.
The Torah is actual the newer, and still could prove to better at what allows our world to 'progress'.
Plato's 'Republic" actually reveals that civilization does not, as secularists would imagine, evolve of it's own accord: Liberal democracy still has the same problems it did 2,500 years ago.
Progressive change actually started with Torah, not the other way around.
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From a historic point of view what is really going on in Maccabee period, as between Jews and "Greeks" in Alexandria, is tensions within Jewish communities with labeling as "Greek" of anyone not conforming to the orthodoxy, (not our orthodoxy today), and in many cases anyone who was a political opponent. 95% of us today would qualify for the charge of "Greek."
In fact we thrived and transformed from a temple based to a true philosophical religion in the Hellenic city states which were more tolerant toward others than any state or system until modern times. On Holy sites, central temples were seen as civic institutions. This meant inclusion for anyone seeking to worship their deit/yies their way. We see that today as pollution, but it is simply wrong to claim, that we were targeted by the "Greeks" (in this case meaning the Hellenic city state administrators, Greek Jews, or actual Greeks) for “seduction” or the desecration was intentional.
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David writes: "95% of us today would qualify for the charge of "Greek.""
Not so sure. The Maccabees weren't fighting against all aspects of Greek culture. After all--much of it, such as their script and architecture, originated with the Jews. The revolt was against the attempt to quash the distinct heritage of the Jewish People.
Allowing everyone to do their thing sounds nice, but that's not what Hellenism achieved. Hellenism trivialized the distinctions between cultures and homogenized the most crass elements into a mushy whole. Antiochus then was the Wal-Mart of today.
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Thank you Rabbi...a lovely articulation of the increditble truth that with and in the Jews, G-d entered time in a manner only dreamed of by the Greeks with their multiple manifestations of anthropromorphic gods. G-d above time, working in time through the Jews, has revealied to all the essence of what it is to be human.
I am Roman Catholic...how you say can I say what I say about the Jews or be what I am given what I say? Because it is the truth. Long live the Jewish people. Long live Israel and long live the memory of the oving reality of G-d's reaching into the time He created and teaching all of us in and through the Jewish people.
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The Greeks wanted every one to be like them. There's much to admire in Platonic and Aristotelian philosophy. We must never stop contemplating reality. That's fine insofar as it goes. Jews understood though that reality is not of this world but beyond it and unlike Plato's Forms, this things of this world do not have an idealized representation elsewhere. Everything in the world was created by G-d and already declared to be good. And this is alien to the Greek mind. For things do not appear to what they are but to the Jew the world is as G-d made it and it is man's duty to work with G-d to improve it.
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I loved the article - especially the line about intellect being the highest principle lacking a guiding light. The only criticism I have (and criticism is too harsh a word) is the misuse of the term 'rice-Christian'. A rice-Christian is not some religious syncretist, but someone forced to convert in order to receive food from missionaries in times of famine. As Jews have a history of forced conversion to Christianity, I feel a little more sensitivity about the issue is justified. Sorry if that sounded condescending, but I thought it was only fair (to those unfortunates who are pejoratively called 'rice-Christians') to clear that up.
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Hi David in Baltimore!
Incorrect - As cultural bridges to Greeks, Hellenized Jews became politically favored and were given both monetary and military might from the Assyrians. They used this power to push their agenda which assisted them in bringing such wonderful Greek civilization to the Jewish people as punishing circumcisions with the death penalty. The Greek Jews were not the Universalists you claim.
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I wonder how long it will take Orthodox Judaism to stop fighting evolution as though it can be proven. How do we not know that this is G-d's planning? Man is not at the top of the food chain; viruses, bacteria and even spider and insect venom can destroy a human being in minutes. Bacteria have evolved to be immune to all that science can toss at them; viruses can change virtually overnight making vaccines impossible to manufacturer before the virus mutates. How Judaism can close its eyes to evolution is beyond me. I've also met ultra-conservative Jews who insist that the Earth is only about 6,000 years old. So much for science.
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Last year scientists said it was 20 billion, this year 12 billion. Whats a few billion here and there? =)
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Your answer is wrong. Current estimates of Earth's age is between 4.5 and 4.6 billion years. Methods used to find the age of the earth involve radiometric dating of meteorite samples, which would have formed at the same time as the earth. You confused the approximate age of the UNIVERSE with the age of the earth ~20 billion years. Cosmology is an exact science, but that said, there is no way that the earth is only 6,000 years old. The Gov. of Alaska claims that men and dinosaurs walked the earth at the same time. Until this year--2009--the Texas State Board of (mis) Education kept trying to deny science, i.e. Darwinism and other science by saying "it is only a theory." The problem is that they do NOT want to understand what a theory is. Einstein's famous theory I=I/R although still called a theory is as close to fact as you can get. Is science and religion opposed to each other? No, not at all. But religion does look rather silly when it turns its back on science.
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Is how old is G-d and I believe that to be infinite. Cosmologists say that the universe began with the "big bang." How many of those Big Bangs have occurred nobody knows. Steven Hawkin's "A Brief History of the Universe" explains the difference between theory and fact much better than I can. Does that mean that I do not believe Torah? Certainly not. I do not believe that the Earth was cobbled together in six 24-hour days. It could have, but it takes an incredible stretch of the imagination to accept that. A more current thought is that the last ice age retreated about 6,000 years ago, that is where people get the idea that the Earth itself is 6k years old. I pity children who are brought up to believe in a 6k year-old earth only to find out that they have been lied to by their fundamentalist schooling.
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Rabbi,
It is clear that you are not using historic sources and are making sweeping generalizations that are simply not true. Greek architecture came from us?
Ronn BenHarav,
Punishing circumcision with death was part of "Greek civilization?" Please get an education. a) that was a Jewish Greek punishment, not a Greek one. We FLOURISHED in Greek city states which were tolerant in an unprecedented scale in the ancient and classical world int eh region. You are taking a slice, informed by polemic statements that don't pass basic vetting and forming your own myopia.
Current Jewish culture, including but not limited to our religious Judaism post temple based, is profoundly Greek. We copied their methodology and worldview.
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David,
It's unbecoming of a Jew to get so upset over a few words. Lets just exchange stories and see where the discrepancy lies as its clear we are reading different history books.
In my version, the Assyrian Greeks took over of Israel at the behest of Antiochus IV, the leader of the Assyrian Greek Empire (Not Jewish). He sent over dozens of battalions to Israel to ensure that Greece would not lose control of Judea, as Jews wouldn't assimilate (i.e.circumsize kids). The Greeks burned, raped, crucified pillaged, immolated and terrified the Jews. (not tollerant)
The Hasmonian Macabees (Jewish) in my version had to hide (not flourish) in woods for 25 years and fight off hundreds of thousands of bloodthirsty Greek mercenaries. About 5 years into this long and brutal war there is a story describing the Maccabean recapture of Jerusalem and its temple from the Greek occupation at which point they rededicate the temple. (Chanukkah means rededicate in my version)
How does your version go?
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Hi Beverly,
Genesis describes the entire universe being created in 7 "days". The Earth is just part of that story. (There is a great book on the commonalities of the big bang theory and Genesis called "in the beginning". There are several books with this title and the author escapes me, I'll try to find out for you in another post.)
Regarding 24 hour periods, that's tough to say. By religious standards, the sun wasn't created until day 4 in Genesis. And by Scientific terms, the big bang is hard to correlate with any notion of time given the theory of relativity in play at the big bang...time cannot exist without an observer (matter) flying through space. The big bang is described as ex-nihilo, from nothing, all matter ever burst forth from an infinitesimally small point. From which perspective are we viewing time? If one is "within" the matter, there is one time, and if one is observing the matter from outside, another. By that notion, I wonder what day is today=)
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the earth. THAT is what it says...began making, not made. Nobody knows for certain how old the universe is nor how old the earth really is, but any one who feels that the answer is 6,000 can keep that concept, it's okay by me. However, I am not a simpleton. G-d gave us BRAINS to think with. I'm not going to attempt a scientific conversation in 1K sessions. Big Bang? Hashem CREATED everything by the word of his mouth. Isn't that sufficient? A second in His time is an unknown quantity of time. I hold a doctoral degree in computer science; I am not an archeologist nor a cosmologist, but I have the brain Hashem chose to give me and it tells me loudly and clearly that the fossils in my backyard are millions of years old, not six thousand years old. Sorry if I choose to not to meddle around in areas in which I am not expert. But I will roar with laughter at any modern person who persists in thinking that the world is flat and only 6K years old.
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Hi Beverly,
I'm not really sure about the exact age...I don't necessarily think that the universe is or isn't 6000 years old, but have heard some very educated and interesting opinions from several religious scientists in Hebrew University who make a pretty good case.
I do think taking such a sarcastic and caustic response to someone with an open mind to the subject is unfortunate. I thought you wanted to discuss the issue in this thread because you wrote a public comment on the topic...I will have to agree to disagree then.
Best,
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I'm being caustic? Sorry, you confuse honesty with negativity; that's your problem not mine. This is not the place nor time to discuss things which cannot be proven one way or the other, so why waste time on that when there is so much more that IS important, such as teaching Jewish youngsters about the dangers of Christian missionaries, which is my main preoccupation.
Do you pray? If so, go carefully read the Amedia where it clearly shows that G-d has given us intelligence and understanding. He did not mean for us to dig a hole called "religion" and hide in it. The very first verse of Torah hints of the antiquity of the universe and even the earth. I tried to point that out in my previous remarks. You are more than welcome to your views, it does not bother me. However I prefer to be a human being and USE the intelligence G-d gave me rather than try to take Torah literally; I am not a Baptist.
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This reminds of so many experiences I have in life. In science, it was faith that allowed invention. Science was only a way I could communicate this idea to an atheist discipline. At one time, my superior threatened to fire me for going to fast with my ideas and not checking myself with the scientific method. I complied, but then after months past, I proved all of them were true by the scientific method. I felt like this was a waste of time, but it was the proper procedure for a godless discipline. The combination of chochmah and binah was science for me by enabling me to dip into the infallible Ayn Soph that ideas arise from. For me, the scientific method was fallible, but faith was not. The "dot in the palace" worked, not chaotic stabbing in the dark, even though my discipline said otherwise. Science cannot explain WHY we have ideas that work, or WHY only some people have ideas that work, and for me those questions are only answerable through emunah.
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